Inverters Grrrrr.
Comments
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Re: Inverters Grrrrr.We probably should get back on thread--Or I will start posting links of doctors going off insurance and charging 1/2 or less the "going rate" for their fees, and dropping test costs to 1/5 to 1/30th of the current "costs". Or how my family's self pay insurance went up by a factor of ~5x-10x and the deductible went from $2.5k for the family to >$8k per person in less than 3 years (original policy is, apparently, no longer even available at any price).
-Bill
Bill - as a family doctor myself I will say that the issues you describe were happening well before Obamacare and is what prompted attempts at reform.
I'm no fan of Obamacare but only because it does little to really fix any of the many fatal flaws in our current health care "system". I, like the vast majority of primary care physicians in this country favor a national "single payer" health care system like most developed countries use. I and other physicians should be paid a fair salary to take care of people and no one should have to go without healthcare - or be bankrupted by medical bills.
This should not be a political issue. With few exceptions, both the Dem and Repub politicians have no real desire to fix a system that diverts most health care spending to insurance companies, drug companies and medical device manufacturer coffers and with part of it ultimately making it's way to line the politicians pockets.
I could go on but I'll leave it at that. Unfortunately - it's going to have to get a lot worse (and it will) before any real healthcare reform happens.
Now, what does this have to do with inverters???
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Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Now, what does this have to do with inverters???
Yes. Exactly.
When we wander away from "global economy and how it relates to where your inverter is made" and into "let's talk healthcare" we have wandered too far. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
The point is that vertigo has qualms about buying an inverter that's made overseas. In reality, you're going to be hard pressed to find one that's not anymore. And even if you do, chances are, there's no difference in quality.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
Even talking about me (a worker) being taken care of from cradle to grave as a reason why things are made over there, is not the same as saying, it is made over there and this is what you get. I am unwilling to take the blame for tvs moving and bananas being higher priced.
My last dig.
gww -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Even talking about me (a worker) being taken care of from cradle to grave as a reason why things are made over there, is not the same as saying, it is made over there and this is what you get. I am unwilling to take the blame for tvs moving and bananas being higher priced.
No matter how you try to bend the blame, American labor is higher priced than Chinese labor. And there is no inherent superiority in the quality of the American labor to justify its higher price. And that's why inverter companies (and everybody else) outsources manufacturing to China. You don't have to take the "blame" if you don't want. But you won't fix the problem either. So you'll more than likely be unemployed while our Chinese friends all have jobs. And in the mean time, get used to buying your inverter with a "Made in China" (or wherever) sticker on it.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.but probly has more to do with lack of regulation
Bingo. That's what make them more competitive. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
I guess I went to far?
gww -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.I guess I went to far?
gww
Just a tad.
It's easy to get wound up about this stuff. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
ChrisAmerican labor is higher priced than Chinese labor.
I was building the minivan in st. louis mo and it was also being built in canada. We were building it cheaper. They closed the st louis plant. What you say is not the whole story of why all things happen. I am sure that the vans that are being built are fine as I am sure some chineese inverters may be fine.
The shirt from china with the nike sign on it might even be made by nike. If you know of an inverter made in china that is good then that should get reconization just as if you know of a bad one that is nice to know also.
gww -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
My. This has wondered around a bit. My comment about "getting back to square one" simply meant that I am still shopping. I may wind up with an XWXXXX, and i am aware of the "global economy" being what it is. I'll also admit I hardly know squat about solar power systems. I make my living servicing European cars, and sell parts for them as well. The Chinese parts have a high fail rate. Like most manufacturing, I'm sure they start out with a spec sheet to manufacture whatever part it happens to be to a specific standard, but they cut corners with materials, or processes to build it for even cheaper and it doesn't fit properly, function, or the service life is greatly reduced. A couple of years ago Bosch farmed out some oil filters to the Chinese. They used some sort of plastic for the end caps which deteriorated in use, plugged up some oil galleys and a number of Volvo drivers bought engines.
Now I'm thinking about a couple of Outback's GVFX3648s. At least I'll have some redundancy if one quits on me and still get my 240 volts since I already bought their PSX-240 Autotransformer. Didn't mean to get on anyone's nerves. I have just had a lot costly problems with Chinese made stuff.
Dennis -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
Depending on your intentions the GVFX will give you " Generator Support " and the ability to sell if you want and that's something that the FX's don't anyway. The Gen support alone make's them the best choice over the FX's. Options are always a good thing. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
Not to confuse but for purly off grid the vfx can be put in paralell and your transformer used for 240 volts. I have not installed anything but have read some on the outback forum. My understanding is you can run higher amp loads and when running low loads it allows one inverter to go to 6w tare load rather then the 20w when inverting. Gen support may be more important then the above things.
good luck
gww -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
Because everyone has promised to behave I've re-opened the thread.
We can now continue to discuss inverters. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Now I'm thinking about a couple of Outback's GVFX3648s.
I would highly suggest considering a Radian instead of stacking inverters. You're looking at about the same price for the base units, and the wiring, disconnects and conduit boxes on stacked inverters gets more complicated and expensive than an integrated true split-phase unit.
Series stacking is going to present some problems with syncing a generator for Gen Support in my experience with them (albeit dual SW Plus 4024's). Parallel stacking and using the PSX-240 for split phase presents a problem with needing a massive 120V generator to use the full charger capacity if you ever take the system off-grid.
Gen Support is not officially supported in the GVFX-series. It is officially supported in the Radian.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
If you're trying to decide between stacked GVFX versus Radian, I'd suggest you ask on the Outback forum to get advice from those with personal experience with those systems. There are a few regular posters there who have extensive experience installing, using and maintaining stacked Outback inverters over several years and with several configurations. 2 stacked GVFX 3648s is a very common, well proven way to get split phase power in a grid-tie with battery back up scenario. Julie (Tallgirl) has such a system and I believe she maintains several others. I disagree that any "massive 120V generator" is needed. As always - generator should be matched to the needs of loads and battery charging (which is dependent on battery bank size). Generator support means you can get by with a smaller, more fuel efficient generator. A Honda em5000is or eu6500is would likely be a good match for that setup. You might even consider 2 smaller generators (such as 2 eu3000s) that can be paralleled. Again redundancy..,,
The Radians are newer so you won't find as many speaking from experience but you will get some. There are pros and cons to each setup and I think it's important to get input from those with personal experience if possible. The Radian is Outbacks "latest and greatest" so the marketing hype, sales pitch, etc will focus on those. That's not to say they are not great units - I think they probably are - and are based on the same underlying tech as the GVFX inverters - just that they have not been around as long.
Personally, based on my experience and priorities, I would choose 2 stacked GVFX 3648s. But that's because redundancy and a long track history of reliability is the most important factor for me. Others may have different priorities. A single Radian is also likely a very good choice and has the advantage of being more "plug and play" in design - which may suit your needs better.
If you decide to go with stacked GVFX's- I would highly recommend the Midnite Solar ePanel which includes mate, 2 Classic CCs, all breakers, SPDs, etc. Street price is about $7000 (see HERE). Not cheap but worth the money IMHO. If you go with a Radian - by the time you add 2 CCs, breakers, wiring, SPDs, etc the price will be about the same.
You can do it cheaper other ways if cost is your main concern.
Good luck with your decision. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.I disagree that any "massive 120V generator" is needed.
I was saying that if you parallel stack two GVFX's with a transformer for split phase, you either need a (addtional) transformer to use a 240V generator, or a large 120V generator to use the charger capacity and have adequate power for loads on either pass-thru or gen support. From another thread vertigo has quite large 240V appliances. Stacking is really "old technology" with the advent of true split-phase units. And this is why:
series-stacked inverters:
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vs a true split-phase unit
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Edit:
I wanted to add that having seen a Radian I think it is an impressive unit. I was not really impressed with the installation we saw because I felt it was not done right. But the inverter itself, despite the fact that it is fairly new, has been in testing for quite awhile before it was released to the general public. With Outback's reputation of support I think it is a viable choice.
As I stated before, we did not choose it because being off-grid I felt "proven" is very important to us because it costs us too much money to run a generator around the clock while we're waiting for an inverter to get fixed. That's also the reason we bought our inverter from a dealer that's only 50 miles away and that has been servicing and installing Xantrex inverters for 20 years. They will do on-site service of the unit, including updating firmware free of charge because they own the "dongle". That cost us a premium buying it from those people vs buying (cheaper) online. In the event we had an Outback dealer nearby that would offer the same level of service, I would've bought a Radian.
And yes, there were and are many stacked SW and FX-series installations from back in the day. But for a new installation I question the viability of stacking for split phase power anymore. The XW is so much more seamless and simple than the stacked setup we originally had that there is no comparison.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
I thought that OP didn't want to stack Outbacks, but rather connect them in parallel. Stacking decreases reliability, but paralelling increases it. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.I thought that OP didn't want to stack Outbacks, but rather connect them in parallel. Stacking decreases reliability, but paralelling increases it.
Stacking can be either serial or parallel.
In serial form they will produce same Wattage (VA) but at 2X Voltage. Each leg is only capable of the limit of the inverter on that leg unless a balancing transformer is used.
In parallel they will produce the same Voltage but 2X the Wattage. You can then use an autotransformer to provide 240 and the legs will balance. Usually in this form the inverter run with the Master operating all the time and the Slave coming in when needed for load demands, but they can also be run together as one larger inverter (uses more standby power).
Exactly which configuration is used depends on how the power will be utilized (mainly 120, mainly 240, mixtures, even/uneven demands, et cetera). But as Chris said simply picking the Radian solves all that configuration hassle, gives you 8kW of power (FX's are 3.6 max so two in parallel is less than the Radian).
The generator issue he mentioned is real: if you want to use the chargers of both inverters @ 120 VAC you have to have enough gen to supply loads and 2X one charger's output. 120 Volt gens usually do not have that much power, but 240 Volt ones do (we are looking at 7kW+ here).
Also since a GVFX3648 is $1,800 two would be $3,600 and a Radian is $4,150 (NAWS prices) but much easier to wire because the tricky stuff is already done. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Cariboocoot wrote: »The generator issue he mentioned is real: if you want to use the chargers of both inverters @ 120 VAC you have to have enough gen to supply loads and 2X one charger's output. 120 Volt gens usually do not have that much power, but 240 Volt ones do (we are looking at 7kW+ here).
That's the problem I see with parallel stacking and using a transformer for split phase. vertigo mentioned that evenually this system will probably be moved off-grid. You don't buy equipment now and then have to replace it later because it's wrong. For off-grid, realistically, you're going to need around 1,000 amp-hours, minimum, to light up two inverters and use their capacity even assuming you do use gen support. The reason is because the inverters still have to carry the load long enough to prevent nuisance starting of the genset for very intermittent loads - and long enough to carry the load when the gen is started for support to give the gen time to come online and warm up before accepting load.
In the event you need to charge a 1,000 ah battery with the genset, you will want 10% of the bank's amp-hour capacity for charging to prevent running the generator too long. 100 amps @ 60 VDC is 6 kW of gen power, and that don't count losses in the chargers. 6 kW @ 120V is a big generator. The Generac EcoGen can do it, but even the EcoGen can't maintain that sort of output for more than 30 minutes before the stator windings overheat and it de-rates. It takes really big wire on 120V to transfer that kind of power any distance. With 240V it's a walk in the park.
The other option is to use a smaller generator and short-charge the bank on gen power (this is my method that I have used) just enough to "get by" and let the RE do the heavy lifting when the weather improves. But that takes a substantial investment in RE generating capacity.
So, IMHO, using 120V power on a system this size is a Bad Idea.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Cariboocoot wrote: »Stacking can be either serial or parallel.
The generator issue he mentioned is real: if you want to use the chargers of both inverters @ 120 VAC you have to have enough gen to supply loads and 2X one charger's output. 120 Volt gens usually do not have that much power, but 240 Volt ones do (we are looking at 7kW+ here).
No disagreement with the fundamentals of series vs parallel stacking and 120V vs 240V generator use. I don't agree that stacking 2 GVFX inverters necessarily means you need a very large generator. As I say - it depends on the baseline and peak loads as well as battery bank size. I don't know what these are for the OP.
For example- say one had baseline loads in the 500 VA range with peak loads of 5-6 kVA and perhaps occasionally brief spikes up to 10-12 kVA. Ave daily power consumption of 20 kWh. Battery bank size of 800 AH at 48V.
A parallel stack of GVFX3648s with autotransformer (for 240V) would handle these loads and a pair of eu3000is could be run singly or in parallel as needed depending on the situation. With them in paralllel baseline loads and and battery charging could be accomplished with perhaps occassional use of generator support for peak loads. Of course you'd hope when one is in the situation of needing to run the generator, conservation and load shifting is in play ...
A series inverter stack to get 240V then using a Honda em5000is or eu6500i as a 240V generator could also work. Again - it all depends on loads and battery bank size. I believe Chris uses a 4000 watt Honda on his very large, load intensive system.
I believe the OP is grid tied with battery back up so the reality would probably be that he would rarely need the generators. Of course if you want to charge a very large battery bank at 10% ROC and simultaneously run large loads for extended periods you would need a larger generator but that is equally true with a Radian - which was my point - the generator size needed depends on loads and battery bank - not which of the 2 inverter set-ups in question are chosen.
The Radian does have higher output than a pair of GVFX3648s so it may be a better choice depending on his peak loads, etc. Also - it is certainly more plug and play so may suit the OP better in that regard. Disadvantages as I see it are less redundancy and newer, less proven design (but likely very reliable nevertheless).
One other advantage of the pair of GVFX3648s is that if at some point in the future the OP wishes to get more into energy conservation and reduce his loads - he could go to a single inverter and be much more efficient - keeping the second as a back up or selling it.
As is often discussed here - designing a "balanced system" is important. Large loads and battery bank require large renewable energy sources. Very few have the RE resources to use more than 20kWH a day which would require a VERY large PV array or the rarely available large wind or hydro resource.
Of course if one is designing a system that relies primarily on the grid or a generator to keep batteries charged - then that is a different story....
Hopefully this discussion is helping the OP- it's a fun discussion and thought experiment in any case!:D
Again I would reccommend he try to get some input from folks who actually use one of these 2 setups ... -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
You only need the big gen if you want to use both chargers at full capacity + loads. That's the whole trick.
It really does point out the whole problem of trying to adapt a system designed for one set of circumstances to a different set of circumstances. Kind of like trying to start small and expand. Inverters aren't very "linearly scalable".
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Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
Neither are CCs, only worse. To use two CCs you have to subdivide your panels into two separate arrays to prevent conflict between the two MPPT controllers.Cariboocoot wrote: »Kind of like trying to start small and expand. Inverters aren't very "linearly scalable".SMA SB 3000, old BP panels. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Neither are CCs, only worse. To use two CCs you have to subdivide your panels into two separate arrays to prevent conflict between the two MPPT controllers.
Uh, yeah.
Of course the reason why you'd have two charge controllers is because the whole array couldn't be handled by one so that's not really much of an issue.
BTW, boB can tell you how to put one big array on two controllers: paralleled input and output. It's not for the faint of heart, though. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
It is if you are starting small and expanding.Cariboocoot wrote: »Uh, yeah.
Of course the reason why you'd have two charge controllers is because the whole array couldn't be handled by one so that's not really much of an issue.SMA SB 3000, old BP panels. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.ChrisOlson wrote: »In the event you need to charge a 1,000 ah battery with the genset, you will want 10% of the bank's amp-hour capacity for charging to prevent running the generator too long. 100 amps @ 60 VDC is 6 kW of gen power, and that don't count losses in the chargers. 6 kW @ 120V is a big generator. The Generac EcoGen can do it, but even the EcoGen can't maintain that sort of output for more than 30 minutes before the stator windings overheat and it de-rates. It takes really big wire on 120V to transfer that kind of power any distance. With 240V it's a walk in the park.
Chris, in the OP, verdigo said he was considering a XW4548 which has a max charging output of 85A. I don't know what his loads or planned battery bank size are but presumably he wasn't planning on quite that large of a system or battery bank. Also - ecogen would likely not work with GVFXs. I would use 2 eu3000i's or an eu6500is in this situation (though not at sustained 6 kW!) - much better generators in any case.The other option is to use a smaller generator and short-charge the bank on gen power (this is my method that I have used) just enough to "get by" and let the RE do the heavy lifting when the weather improves. But that takes a substantial investment in RE generating capacity.
Yes, good points - see my reference to a balanced system below. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Cariboocoot wrote: »You only need the big gen if you want to use both chargers at full capacity + loads. That's the whole trick.
Yep - depending on the loads... But also true with a Radian.
This whole discussion would probably be much more useful for the OP if we knew his loads..
System design starts with the loads... where have I heard that before? -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.I believe the OP is grid tied with battery back up so the reality would probably be that he would rarely need the generators.
This might be a bit long, as it's a lot of my thoughts on the issue.
There was another thread awhile back where vertigo outlined some of the stuff he has to power. And he has a totally electric home. For off-grid this is generally considered "bad". But we have a totally electric home and thru much experimenting and swapping out (very heavy) inverters three times in the last two years have figured out a way to power it all that's pretty efficient. So it CAN be done.
I assume all along that even though vertigo has grid power at present, he will still want to be able to use his electric appliances in an extended outage (they do happen). And he is always mentioning inverter possibilities of a size capable of powering those appliances with proper application of gen support so he doesn't have to spend a small fortune on batteries right now. When he goes off-grid this will be different because he'll need more battery capacity. But why put in a crippled system for now that can only power part of your stuff?
This is where things get a little cloudy in the Outback vs XW issue - and Outback was not able to answer my questions clearly on this; how does the Radian handle the generator for peak load support? I was told several times by Outback tech support, plus the dealer, "Oh, with the Radian you won't need gen support because the inverter is 8 kW". They really don't seem to get it. Talking to Mike at Schneider tech support, they understand perfectly what gen support and peak load support is all about. And that's why the amp setting for peak load in the XW is the total (sum) of the current on L1 and L2 of a split-phase system. Like Mike told me when I had some questions on how to set it up, and I quote him here:
Kudos for deducing the answer from the event log! You are correct. The AC Breaker setting looks at the highest current on either leg - as too much current on either leg will blow a breaker - which is what we want to avoid.
For the Gen start, we are looking at conserving total energy from the battery so we are looking at total current.
Outback has never seen fit to build a generator controller, instead having to use third-party stuff. And that controller being integrated with the system is why it works so seamless with the XW-series inverters. All the Outback products do is send a signal with an AUX port. So there is no communication between the Outback inverter and the controller that's controlling the generator. The gen can blow a breaker and the Outback don't even know if it's running or not, unloaded. XW does know that so it stops it instead of just letting it sit there running and burning fuel with a popped breaker.
Auto-starting/stopping the generator for various conditions is an integral part of using the gen for peak load support. So using dual generators that run simultaneously is pretty much out of the question for this type of setup. You can't have a system like this where you the human are going to constantly monitor the load on the system and then go, "oh - the load is too big. Have to run out and start the generator." And then two hours later, after the load has been off for over an hour you go, "dang - forgot to shut the generator off." Our generator starts and stops several times a day for this. This is from just this morning:
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It started it at 9:07 this morning and ran it for 32 minutes because my wife turned on something (or several things) big. Don't even know what it was that caused it because I wasn't here. It "just works". And that's the beauty of it. I can't see how this is going to "just work" with stacked inverters, because I could never get it to "just work". You got two inverters that are trying to stay sync'd with one another (180° out of phase), plus each one individually trying to sync with the appropriate leg from the generator - and the amplitude of the sine waves might not even be the same due to leg imbalance. So it tries, then instantly spits the gen off because a leg overloaded and the voltage on that leg went out of spec. With an integrated split-phase inverter there is none of these problems getting the gen to sync up with it (at least with the XW) because the horse's head knows what the horse's tail is doing at all times. It "just works".
So I would be highly suspicious of recommending stacked GVFX's with gen support in mind being even Outback could not tell me exactly how it's going to work even in the Radian. They instead kept skirting my question on it and saying, "Oh, you probably won't need it." Well, that wasn't real assuring to me when Schneider was able to give me definite answers on how it works, right down to suggesting that I use the auto-transformer to enhance the performance of our little generator. The people at Schneider obviously have tons of experience with it - the people at Outback have very limited experience with it because the Radian is their first venture into a Big Time split-phase unit.
So those are all my thoughts on it, mostly based on experience using this stuff to power loads that most people consider impossible to power with an off-grid system. Maybe vertigo isn't even interested in powering the big stuff in his house. But I assumed from an earlier thread that he was, or is.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
I just looked at verdigo's earlier thread where he discussed his electrical loads.
I'm not exactly sure what his goals are for powering loads when the grid is down.
IMHO designing a grid tied with battery back up system with the capacity to fully power an all electric home and run electric range, clothes dryer, water heater, furnace/air conditioner during a grid outage is crazy! Lots of extra money needed to get from comfortable to "no change whatsoever" during a grid outage.
For example we have a modern 3200 sq foot home that is all electric other than a propane range. We do have frequent grid outages but during those we do not use our electric dryer and conserve hot water - relying on a 120V Nyle Geyser heatpump water heater (and soon a wood stove heater coil for winter). We don't use our electric furnace/heat pump but use our wood stove for heat. All very easily do able and quite comfortable. No real sacrifices. We still use our dishwasher and clothes washer. We can do this effortlessly with one GVFX 3648 on 10kWh a day (5-7 kWh with a little effort) - and that is a family of 4.
Obviously more than one way to skin this cat - different design philosophies and opinions and no one "right way".
I see in the original postings from verdigo that he is considering powering an off grid cabin in the future. Presumably this would have much lower loads - "scale back to use at a future off grid cabin" was the quote. in that case he likely would be able to have a much smaller system for this cabin - perhaps using one GVFX inverter. Scalability - up or down - is an advantage in this case.
Running a fully loaded electric home with all appliances, etc going at any time off grid is pretty uncommon but of course can be done if you have the renewable energy resource (as Chris does) or are willing to burn a lot of dead dinosaurs. Perfectly valid - just a different way to go and more expensive. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Running a fully loaded electric home with all appliances, etc going at any time off grid is pretty uncommon but of course can be done if you have the renewable energy resource (as Chris does) or are willing to burn a lot of dead dinosaurs.
I think I had figured out that he could power all his stuff with a 4548 and a 3-4 kW generator, just have to schedule the heavy loads like don't run the clothes dryer and range oven at the same time. It's actually no more crazy than burning dead dinosaurs in the form of propane for appliances. Better than 95% of the time we can run our high draw electric stuff on renewable power generated by our system.
It comes down to the fact that if you live off-grid you're more than likely going to burn some generator fuel anyway. How you use that fuel determines what the overall efficiency of your generator power is. Charging batteries with it is one of the worst efficiency nightmares ever invented for off-grid. Otherwise do you want, in the long run, to stick your money in propane for the appliances, or stick it in solar panels? The solar panels are more expensive. But they're a more sound choice.
vertigo's plans happen to be perfect for the application of generator support with the right inverter. He doesn't have to give up anything in his house just because he's on off-grid power - IF it's designed right. And that will teach him that when he moves to his off-grid cabin in the future, he don't have to scale anything back there either - unless he wants to.
All it requires is the right inverter with a reasonable battery, and a properly sized auto-start generator to make it all possible. With those three items vertigo could move completely off-grid with his totally electric home. But he wouldn't like the fuel bill in the generator. So you add RE sources to prevent having to charge batteries with the generator, and reduce the amount of hours it has to run for peak load. It's really that simple. What he chooses for an inverter will determine if it's going to work or not for the initial part of his project. It doesn't sound like he's interested in selling power back to the grid. So that means he'll probably use his system every single day to power some loads from his solar panels. That part is easy with any inverter. But there's only a couple viable options if he wants to keep the whole house lit when the grid goes down without buying a 12+ kW standby generator. And the thing is, those couple of viable options are not going to cost a heck of lot more than doing it the cheap scaled back way when you're dealing with a split-phase system.
But I'm sorry to say that stacked GVFX's with gen support is not one of the viable options. That configuration is not even supported by Outback.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.ChrisOlson wrote: »I think I had figured out that he could power all his stuff with a 4548 and a 3-4 kW generator, just have to schedule the heavy loads like don't run the clothes dryer and range oven at the same time. It's actually no more crazy than burning dead dinosaurs in the form of propane for appliances. Better than 95% of the time we can run our high draw electric stuff on renewable power generated by our system.--
Chris
No matter what dead dinosaur system you use, the end result is noise and air pollution. When I hear about NG and propane being better than fossil fuels, in the short term maybe; however, the BTU content of NG and propane is far less than gas, diesel or a #2 type stove oil, and last but not least, bunker C - good old black gold. If you do the calks on BTU for each of them, not quantity, NG and propane are far more expensive than the rest (a lot of water content); however, gas appliances do allow for some additional latitude in one's design. As has been stated, it's all about balance and maximizing your dollar to your benefit.
Cheers
Ernest
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