Inverters Grrrrr.
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verdigo
Solar Expert Posts: 428 ✭✭
So. I had decided fully to buy an XW4548 or maybe the 6048, but I was all in for an XW system. In the meantime I have been doing a lot reading. The more I read it seems that the XW has issues with firmware and support. On the other hand I am reading a lot of positive things about Outback, specifically the GVFX3648. My intent for the system is to be grid tied with battery back-up. In either case I don't want to have to babysit the system once it is up and running. I guess what I am looking for is real world experience ie pros, and cons for either platform.
Comments
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Re: Inverters Grrrrr.So. I had decided fully to buy an XW4548 or maybe the 6048, but I was all in for an XW system. In the meantime I have been doing a lot reading. The more I read it seems that the XW has issues with firmware and support. On the other hand I am reading a lot of positive things about Outback, specifically the GVFX3648. My intent for the system is to be grid tied with battery back-up. In either case I don't want to have to babysit the system once it is up and running. I guess what I am looking for is real world experience ie pros, and cons for either platform.
If you're going to do UPS style - sell all you produce and keep batteries charged all the time, XW should do just fine. Looks like that's what they were designed for. If you want to cycle batteries, you may have a problem. I would suggest figuring out all the settings before buying. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.So. I had decided fully to buy an XW4548 or maybe the 6048, but I was all in for an XW system. In the meantime I have been doing a lot reading. The more I read it seems that the XW has issues with firmware and support. On the other hand I am reading a lot of positive things about Outback, specifically the GVFX3648. My intent for the system is to be grid tied with battery back-up. In either case I don't want to have to babysit the system once it is up and running. I guess what I am looking for is real world experience ie pros, and cons for either platform.
Verdigo: Have the same quandary as yourself. Read the same posts probably, have enjoyed the banter between the Magisterium regarding pros and cons of various equipment, and the operation of such. I have never seen systems of these magnitudes with the various pieces such as a solar power system that can be installed and left to its own devices.
I would submit that everyone has quirks with their systems that they have had to address to ensure proper or adequate operation. The systems that are more complex will indeed require a more hands on approach. A grid-tie system without battery back-up appears, from forum posts, to be fairly hands off. Add batteries and you are going to be more involved, or as has been stated, you could very well murder your batteries and be replacing them sooner than expected.
Your query, IMHO, appears to be about which inverter/charger to use. It seems that the OB line of products goes from a small 48V inverter directly to the Radian, where the XW lineup has a more layered approach with the XW4548 and XW6048, and even larger. Then we get into compatibility issues and how one wants to use the system. In this regard, I would say there is no one solution.
We are going with the XW6048, cost is one factor, system application and how we intend to live, and for other reasons that probably would not make sense to anyone but us. I am willing to live with this and work through the system as required. Will I have issues, probably, but that is the nature of the beast.
Lots of information and advice available, but as was mentioned on my forum, you can second guess yourself but eventually you have to make your decision.
Put 10 engineers in one room and you will get 10 opinions.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Cheers
Ernest -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Panamretiree wrote: »Put 10 engineers in one room and you will get 10 opinions.
No, you will get at least 12.
Outback is native 120 VAC without an autotransformer or doubling inverters. You can stack them in various ways to get various outputs of Voltage and Wattage capacity. Tends to get expensive quickly at roughly $2,000 per; buy two and you are in XW/Radian range.
Outback's GVFX units are perhaps not as good a choice for GT as an XW or a Radian; they are "old tech" and not quite "fluent" in some of the functionality you get with the newer units. The Radian would be, but it is a brand-new product so there aren't a lot of reports back on its performance yet.
Xantrex's XW has known faults, most of which have solutions. Some of those solution cost to fix (having to buy a "dongle" to implant firmware for example). If you buy one, insist the seller/installer brings it up-to-date. Check over the forum for known faults and compare them to how you plan to use the unit. Some of the issues aren't issues at all if the flawed feature is not part of your intended operation.
If it were strictly off-grid the Outback is probably the better choice (unless you need 240 VAC/high power) especially in less-than-ideal environs. For GT with battery back-up the XW is probably the better choice all things considered.
Now, when Bob and Robin get their act together and release the new MidNite inverter that of course will be the best. I hear they've code named it "Mary Poppins" because it's practically perfect in every way. (Just kidding; no such device has been announced even at development stages.) -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Cariboocoot wrote: »
Xantrex's XW has known faults, most of which have solutions. Some of those solution cost to fix (having to buy a "dongle" to implant firmware for example). If you buy one, insist the seller/installer brings it up-to-date. Check over the forum for known faults and compare them to how you plan to use the unit. Some of the issues aren't issues at all if the flawed feature is not part of your intended operation.
I'll give NAWS a call and ask about getting an XW that is up to date. Do the Outback units stack for 240v A/C or do they just double the output? -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.I'll give NAWS a call and ask about getting an XW that is up to date. Do the Outback units stack for 240v A/C or do they just double the output?
Outback can be stack in series for 240 VAC or parallel for X times Wattage or both. Either way can be used with/without an autotransformer for the advantages it offers (leg balancing, 240 VAC). They can also be arranged for 3 phase output. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.I'll give NAWS a call and ask about getting an XW that is up to date. Do the Outback units stack for 240v A/C or do they just double the output?
verdigo,
I like NAZW&S, and I STILL do business with them.
BUT the only XW product that I purchased came from them. I DID ask them if this XW-SCC had the latest FirmWare. Answer, "YES!, we just got them in".
Well that SCC had several years out-of-date FW, and Wind-Sun was unwilling/unable to do anyting whatsoever to help get the FW updated.
The XW SCC had horrible BUGs.
Called Scfhneider, who was unfamiuliar with the BUG, one Tech offered to check it out, and later informed me that they were "unable to duplicate" the problem. Finally, a different Schneider Tech said that this bug was a "Feature", which had been fixed in later FW.
The remedy offered by Schneider was for me to BUY the Implanter Dongle, or RENT one from them for about $50 + freight.
This was unacceptable to me, so I still have this USELESS Schneider XW SCC POS sitting here as a reminder of just how "good" Schneider Customer Support really is.
Most/all of this XW stuff appears to be made in China, and the supply chain is very, very long. It also appears that Schneider never updates FW in ANY of the XW product line, and relies on the Customer buying the Implanter or renting it from them -- grossly unacceptable IMHO.
Just my personal experiences. But, for Off-Grid, there seem to be fewer problems with the XW Inverters than for those that are Grid Interactive.
It appears that Grid Interactive XW Inverters have a number of flaws/bugs that have been well-known for years, but Schneider has yet to fix many of these, as I read it. Good Luck! Nothing is perfect, but ... some things are less perfect than others. Opinions, VicOff Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes. 25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel, Honda Eu6500isa, Eu3000is-es, Eu2000, Eu1000 gensets. Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Cariboocoot wrote: »Outback can be stack in series for 240 VAC or parallel for X times Wattage or both. Either way can be used with/without an autotransformer for the advantages it offers (leg balancing, 240 VAC). They can also be arranged for 3 phase output.
I have read that Outback hybrid inverters don't like A/C generators, but will work with an inverter generator. I don't know anything about those. I assume from the name that they are DC generators with an onboard inverter??? -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Panamretiree wrote: »Verdigo: Have the same quandary as yourself. Read the same posts probably, have enjoyed the banter between the Magisterium regarding pros and cons of various equipment, and the operation of such. I have never seen systems of these magnitudes with the various pieces such as a solar power system that can be installed and left to its own devices.
I would submit that everyone has quirks with their systems that they have had to address to ensure proper or adequate operation. The systems that are more complex will indeed require a more hands on approach. A grid-tie system without battery back-up appears, from forum posts, to be fairly hands off. Add batteries and you are going to be more involved, or as has been stated, you could very well murder your batteries and be replacing them sooner than expected.
Your query, IMHO, appears to be about which inverter/charger to use. It seems that the OB line of products goes from a small 48V inverter directly to the Radian, where the XW lineup has a more layered approach with the XW4548 and XW6048, and even larger. Then we get into compatibility issues and how one wants to use the system. In this regard, I would say there is no one solution.
We are going with the XW6048, cost is one factor, system application and how we intend to live, and for other reasons that probably would not make sense to anyone but us. I am willing to live with this and work through the system as required. Will I have issues, probably, but that is the nature of the beast.
Lots of information and advice available, but as was mentioned on my forum, you can second guess yourself but eventually you have to make your decision.
Put 10 engineers in one room and you will get 10 opinions.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Cheers
Ernest
Yes I have read your thread on your Panama location. Nice. My brother and sister inlaw have a piece of an island down there. They aren't there full time yet. They are off grid, and kill batteries on a regular schedule. Presently looking at grid tied with battery back-up. i care for my invalid father right now and he has some pretty hungry medical appliances. I am also in the market for some secluded acreage which will be the final destination for the system. There I plan on being off grid full time. Haven't found the right knob just yet. Thanks for your input, and good luck.
Dennis -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.I have read that Outback hybrid inverters don't like A/C generators, but will work with an inverter generator. I don't know anything about those. I assume from the name that they are DC generators with an onboard inverter???
Outback's off-grid inverters are not picky about generator input: the parameters are programmable. Almost everything in an Outback is programmable. You do need a MATE controller to do it, though. Fortunately it also all works.
The grid-tie units are more choosy because they sample for quality grid power, figuring if the Voltage or frequency is off there's something wrong with the grid so they "drop" it. They too can be adjusted, but there usually isn't any reason to.
Inverter-generators have standard AC output. They can vary the engine speed under power demands. Technically all generators produce AC. The difference is in what they do with it: low speed the frequency and Voltage is "low", so the inverter circuitry adjusts this to proper output levels. What throws people off is that they usually also have a low power DC output (not really usable for much) which is often done with a completely different set of windings. It's there because of the popularity of these units for camping, where having such a supply is sometimes useful (someone left the radio on, camper won't start). -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Yes I have read your thread on your Panama location. Nice. My brother and sister inlaw have a piece of an island down there. They aren't there full time yet. They are off grid, and kill batteries on a regular schedule. Presently looking at grid tied with battery back-up. i care for my invalid father right now and he has some pretty hungry medical appliances. I am also in the market for some secluded acreage which will be the final destination for the system. There I plan on being off grid full time. Haven't found the right knob just yet. Thanks for your input, and good luck.
Dennis
Dennis: Thanks for viewing my thread. The house is being painted, doors have been ordered and windows are ready to go. Workshop, where the inverter and such will be installed, is painted as well. Then the tiling will begin.
Still sourcing batteries, etc. Nothings final until the cheque is stroked.
My Father passed in February and we were doing the home hospice thing as per Dad's wishes. Never easy caring for someone that close.
Cheers
Ernest -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.verdigo,
I like NAZW&S, and I STILL do business with them.
BUT the only XW product that I purchased came from them. I DID ask them if this XW-SCC had the latest FirmWare. Answer, "YES!, we just got them in".
Well that SCC had several years out-of-date FW, and Wind-Sun was unwilling/unable to do anyting whatsoever to help get the FW updated.
The XW SCC had horrible BUGs.
Called Scfhneider, who was unfamiuliar with the BUG, one Tech offered to check it out, and later informed me that they were "unable to duplicate" the problem. Finally, a different Schneider Tech said that this bug was a "Feature", which had been fixed in later FW.
The remedy offered by Schneider was for me to BUY the Implanter Dongle, or RENT one from them for about $50 + freight.
This was unacceptable to me, so I still have this USELESS Schneider XW SCC POS sitting here as a reminder of just how "good" Schneider Customer Support really is.
Most/all of this XW stuff appears to be made in China, and the supply chain is very, very long. It also appears that Schneider never updates FW in ANY of the XW product line, and relies on the Customer buying the Implanter or renting it from them -- grossly unacceptable IMHO.
Just my personal experiences. But, for Off-Grid, there seem to be fewer problems with the XW Inverters than for those that are Grid Interactive.
It appears that Grid Interactive XW Inverters have a number of flaws/bugs that have been well-known for years, but Schneider has yet to fix many of these, as I read it. Good Luck! Nothing is perfect, but ... some things are less perfect than others. Opinions, Vic
This is the kind of thing I wan't to hear about. I am starting to think that "old school" is better. I was just talking to my brother in-law and he told me that one of his neighbors in Panama had an Outback unit go bad and Outback had him a replacement in two days. And the made in China thing is a real turn off as well. I have a garage as my business and I know Chinese auto parts have a high fail rate. You can buy some cheap Chinese parts and make money, but if you have to do the work twice your not making any money.
Dennis -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.This is the kind of thing I wan't to hear about. I am starting to think that "old school" is better. I was just talking to my brother in-law and he told me that one of his neighbors in Panama had an Outback unit go bad and Outback had him a replacement in two days.
Well. When Xantrex support decided that I needed a replacement inverter, I got it at my door two days later. And that's not an easy task. I'm almost 100 miles away from the nearest city. Even postman doesn't go here.And the made in China thing is a real turn off as well. I have a garage as my business and I know Chinese auto parts have a high fail rate. You can buy some cheap Chinese parts and make money, but if you have to do the work twice your not making any money.
Most Chinese stuff is bad because it is designed to be cheap. But you can make a quality stuff in China too. Xantrex looks very solid. When I got it, I was really impressed with build quality.
IMHO, the weakest point in Xantrex is software. If you want to connect to the grid and also regularly cycle batteries, it may be impossible for you to make it work as you want. So, you need to be very careful here.
Have you considered Outback Radian? -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Well. When Xantrex support decided that I needed a replacement inverter, I got it at my door two days later. And that's not an easy task. I'm almost 100 miles away from the nearest city. Even postman doesn't go here.
Most Chinese stuff is bad because it is designed to be cheap. But you can make a quality stuff in China too. Xantrex looks very solid. When I got it, I was really impressed with build quality.
IMHO, the weakest point in Xantrex is software. If you want to connect to the grid and also regularly cycle batteries, it may be impossible for you to make it work as you want. So, you need to be very careful here.
Have you considered Outback Radian?
I have looked at Radian, and I was pretty much committed to buying the Xantrex unit until I started reading (mostly on this forum) all the problems people were having with the XW6048 inverters. I may still buy one yet. Reading Chris Olson's posts he seems to be very satisfied with his unit, but I'm no Chris Olson. As for Chinese products, my experience with their auto parts is that even their copying a "well designed" part the fail rate is pretty bad, and it seems to be the norm across all of the various brands. Although you got good service from Xantrex in the form of prompt replacement it is still yet one more instance of a failed Chinese made product. Since your replacement unit arrived how has the performance been? -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.I have looked at Radian, and I was pretty much committed to buying the Xantrex unit until I started reading (mostly on this forum) all the problems people were having with the XW6048 inverters. I may still buy one yet. Reading Chris Olson's posts he seems to be very satisfied with his unit, but I'm no Chris Olson. As for Chinese products, my experience with their auto parts is that even their copying a "well designed" part the fail rate is pretty bad, and it seems to be the norm across all of the various brands. Although you got good service from Xantrex in the form of prompt replacement it is still yet one more instance of a failed Chinese made product. Since your replacement unit arrived how has the performance been?
It works well. The first unit worked fine too. That'd just their support is aimed at replacing rather than addressing small things.
One thing that I don't like is how it regulates generator load during charging. It hunts even when loads are steady. But that would be best cured with bigger generator which doesn't need regulation. Probably doesn't apply to you.
I'm using it off-grid though. So does Chris Olson. Most reported problems relay to coordination of grid with battery cycling. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
Off grid user here - love the XW 6048 for 3 (or is it 4 years) now.Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister , -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.And the made in China thing is a real turn off as well
Outback inverters are made in India. Is that better?
Even Honda generators, widely recognized as some of the best portable generators on earth, are built in China these days
Attachment not found.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.ChrisOlson wrote: »Outback inverters are made in India. Is that better?
Where did you get that information from? -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Cariboocoot wrote: »Where did you get that information from?
Right off the serial number sticker on the Radian inverter that my wife and I looked at when we were inverter shopping.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.ChrisOlson wrote: »Right off the serial number sticker on the Radian inverter that my wife and I looked at when we were inverter shopping.
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Chris
Uh-oh.
More "improvements" by the Alpha Group takeover I guess. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.Cariboocoot wrote: »Uh-oh.
More "improvements" by the Alpha Group takeover I guess.
Maybe I should have kept the Power Jack? -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
I faced a similar decision (GVFX vs XW) when I set up my system a few years ago. At the time there had just been a Xantrex inverter recall and it was suggested to me that they may have quality issues since moving production to China. At that time the Outbacks were made in the USA. I think the XWs have since proven to be good units except for the firmware/software bugs that have generated several threads here.
I'm not sure what functionality 'Coot is referring to but there is nothing my GVFX doesn't do that I need, want or can think of. If had to do it again I would make the same purchase.
The main pro of the Xantrex that I see is the tolerance of non-inverter generators. This was not an issue for me since I already had a Honda eu2000i. Since the Honda inverter generators are such good units I think I would even recommend using one of these with an XW - so the point is moot IMO.
240V loads are easy to do with a single GVFX using an autotransformer - I do this and it works very well.. If your overall power needs exceed a single GVFX3648's ability - I think the beauty of stacking 2 of these is it gives you redundancy so that if one inverter goes out - you still have power. I have a second GVFX 3648 that I got on sale and is sitting in a box for my back up. Eventually it may go into a second system for my detached garage.
The other thing I really liked about the Outback GVFX 3648 was the Midnite solar incorporation of it into one of their E-Panels with their Classic cc which I knew I wanted.
If you're into monitoring your system (like I am), one pro for the Outbacks is the ability to use the inexpensive Wattplot monitoring software. I'm not sure if there is something equivalent for use with the XWs. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.If you're into monitoring your system (like I am), one pro for the Outbacks is the ability to use the inexpensive Wattplot monitoring software. I'm not sure if there is something equivalent for use with the XWs.
XW has the new Conext ComBox that replaces the old XW Gateway. However, I wouldn't call it "inexpensive".
IIRC from another thread, vertigo had a list of loads that far exceeds the capability of a small 3.5 kVA inverter and he needs split phase power. So that kind of narrows the choices down to either the XW-series or GS8048. The XW is a proven and time-tested unit. The GS8048 is not, and has had several failures in the field from cooling fans to failed power modules to control boards (info I gleaned from the dealer but was told "it's all fixed now").
Sure, you can series stack 120V inverters but that's pretty much a kludge when you got true split-phase units like the XW or Radian to choose from when you need 120/240V power.
There's also the Magnum PAE-series. But one of our off-grid neighbors not too far away has one and they are not happy with it because the voltage regulation is terrible and their lights flicker from even something simple like the washing machine running. And the electrical efficiency of the PAE is not very good compared to the Big Boys.
So I'd say vertigo should get a GS8048 Radian. Not many people got 'em and if he gets one he can let us know if it's really "all fixed now" like the dealer told me.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
I e-mailed Outback and the following is the reply I received. I guess I'm back to square one.
Dennis,
Thank you for your interest in OutBack Power, My name is Ed Wold and I work in the North American Sales Dept. here at OutBack Power.
Your E-Mail was forwarded onto me from our public sales folder for follow up. In answer to your questions below there should not be any issues with using our vented (VFX)units on the humidity as long as they are indoors. All of our inverter boards are conformal coated as well.
In regards to Country of Origin, all of our G inverters (Grid tied) are Made in the USA, but the VFX3648 is made in India, although we do have some products made overseas we still fully test them in our Bellingham facility before we send them out to ensure they meet our standards.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions or concerns.
With kind regards,
Ed Wold
Sales – North America, OutBack Power Technologies
17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223
360.618.4319 office | 360.631.8506 mobile | skype edward2011411
www.outbackpower.com -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
I don't know about square one. There's hardly anything made in USA anymore. Even if it's assembled here most of the parts for it probably come from China or someplace else. Even SKF, the Swedish bearing manufacturer and long recognized as some of the highest quality bearings in the world, now primarily manufactures their angular contact ball bearings in China.
Welcome to the Global Economy.
But it's like NorthGuy said, just because it's made overseas doesn't automatically mean it's bad quality. You can get some of the very best stuff from China, and also some of the very worst. It all depends on the facility and the quality control. All these companies like Schneider, SKF, Outback or Honda source the building of their stuff from Asia because labor is cheaper there. But that doesn't mean the manufacturing facility isn't state-of-the-art. And it also doesn't mean these companies are pedaling junk. Most of them, like Mercury Marine here in Wisconsin, own the facility in China where the four-stroke engines are built for their outboards, for instance. They assemble them in Fon Du Lac, Wisconsin but everything is built in China.
So the bottom line is that the USA is no longer Top Dawg in manufacturing because American workers priced themselves out of a job. China is. They don't have to pay for ObamaCare in China, nor do Chinese employers have to pay for everything for employees from the cradle to the grave. So they got the jobs and we don't. It's really that simple. When American workers quit thinking they're worth more than they really are, maybe some of those jobs will come back here.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.ChrisOlson wrote: »I don't know about square one. There's hardly anything made in USA anymore. Even if it's assembled here most of the parts for it probably come from China or someplace else. Even SKF, the Swedish bearing manufacturer and long recognized as some of the highest quality bearings in the world, now primarily manufactures their angular contact ball bearings in China.
Welcome to the Global Economy.
But it's like NorthGuy said, just because it's made overseas doesn't automatically mean it's bad quality. You can get some of the very best stuff from China, and also some of the very worst. It all depends on the facility and the quality control. All these companies like Schneider, SKF, Outback or Honda source the building of their stuff from Asia because labor is cheaper there. But that doesn't mean the manufacturing facility isn't state-of-the-art. And it also doesn't mean these companies are pedaling junk. Most of them, like Mercury Marine here in Wisconsin, own the facility in China where the four-stroke engines are built for their outboards, for instance. They assemble them in Fon Du Lac, Wisconsin but everything is built in China.
So the bottom line is that the USA is no longer Top Dawg in manufacturing because American workers priced themselves out of a job. China is. They don't have to pay for ObamaCare in China, nor do Chinese employers have to pay for everything for employees from the cradle to the grave. So they got the jobs and we don't. It's really that simple. When American workers quit thinking they're worth more than they really are, maybe some of those jobs will come back here.
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Chris
Chris: The irony of what you say is, that these countries where labour is quite a bit less than in North America at this time, that labour rates will go up in these countries as more work comes in and the populace gets organized and wants more money - it will happen. There have been companies that have moved out of China because of rising labour costs. As you say welcome to the global economy. A viscious circle, may eventually come back to North America. I see this as an absolute just like death, taxes and VISA.
I do agree that the companies that have good QA and QC, maintain this aspect regardless of where its equipment is made with the caveat that a Monday and Friday made item could be suspect regardless of where it is made.
Cheers
Ernest -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
Of course. It's all about competition. Honda's Goldwing was built in the Marysville, Ohio plant since 1979. The first GL1000's came from Japan. But the later GL1000's, GL1100's, GL1200, GL1500 and the first GL1800's came from the Marysville plant. Honda was getting their butt kicked in the luxury motorcycle market by Harley-Davidson. Harley gets their stuff built in China these days, even though they tighten the bolts up in Milwaukee before it goes to the dealer floor. So Honda shut down production of the GL1800 in Marysville in 2011 and moved it to China. Even though the US is the primary market for the GL.
The move to China helps Honda keep their costs down so they can compete with the H-D FLHTCU UltraGlide on profit margins. But the Goldwing still does not compete with the Ultra on raw appeal to the buyer.
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Chris -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
I must say that we may live in a world economy but that doesn't make it a good thing. If free trade caused this then I think maby they have free trade wrong. My ideal of free trade would be if brazil has the best bananas and we make the best tv's, then we can trade tvs for bananas. Taking tv making tehcnology and hiring those that grow bananas because the guy controlling the tehcnology can make more money off of the banana growers labor is not free trade.
It has not got much to do with the worker over pricing his labor but probly has more to do with lack of regulation and tanks to keep workers in line.
Obamacare is the best thing since sliced bread except he didn't go far enough. It defenatly helps level the playing field for those employers who for whatever reason were providing health care for their employees and were there by decent members of society.
Unfair trade practices has nothing to do with how much workers get paid or what kind of society we might want to live in.
If I could pay the town mayor a portion of my profits to get him to get the police to keep the workers working for me for almost nothing I would have a pretty good chance of making a profit.
Being able to keep my child on my insurance till they are 26 might give them a chance to get more established towards gettin their own.
My thoughts
gww -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
Just remember guys: if this goes too political it will get clamped down. -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
We probably should get back on thread--Or I will start posting links of doctors going off insurance and charging 1/2 or less the "going rate" for their fees, and dropping test costs to 1/5 to 1/30th of the current "costs". Or how my family's self pay insurance went up by a factor of ~5x-10x and the deductible went from $2.5k for the family to >$8k per person in less than 3 years (original policy is, apparently, no longer even available at any price).
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Inverters Grrrrr.
It shouldn't too political though I have a hard time letting views out there with out perhaps a differrent veiw being presented. OK, back to the subject. I have an outback inverter that sure is heavy and looks cool and I sure hope, when I get it going, works good.
fingers crossed
gww
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