Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Cariboocoot

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Gosh, we'd better all go hide in our basements.

Oops! I haven't got a basement.

Oh well, I've lived long enough already.



Just my peculiar way of saying there's no sense in worrying about something you can't really do much about anyway. Since you can't predict the time, intensity, or extent of the damage its a bit difficult to plan any course of action.

Oh and we're not going to allow the forum to degrade into another paranoid preppers' parade either.

ChrisOlson

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Oh and we're not going to allow the forum to degrade into another paranoid preppers' parade either.

'coot - nothing to do with paranoid preppers and the collapse of society. The paranoid preppers in their underground dungeons are going to find out they ain't no better off than anybody else. This is scientific fact. And according the research I have done on it, those of use who have spent the money to put in renewable energy systems are going to find out that they will be mostly unaffected by such an event. Every event in history involving solar flares and damage to equipment has involved wires strung all over the countryside.

It may never happen in your lifetime. But most of us have kids and maybe grandkids. Show 'em that there's a better way and that the reliance on the Borg will never replace the age old virtue of self sufficiency. That alone makes the money spent on a renewable energy system worth every dime IMHO. Last fall when our 9 year old grandson proudly mentioned in school that his grandpa and grandma generate all their own power with solar panels and wind generators his teacher thought it was interesting enough to arrange a field trip for the whole class to come and see it. The word got around and we had another group come later from another school district on a field trip to see it. Some of the kids' parents came on the field trip as chaperones. We got to show 'em all how it's done and it made a lasting impression on the kids (and I think even more of an impression on the parents).

I have long said that if you try to boil this renewable energy business down to economics you may as well forget it. If all you're worried about is money, then just be happy counting your pennies you have saved up. But some of us believe, despite the costs of it, that's it's a long term better solution to the world's energy problems than the massive grid infrastructure with centralized generating facilities that society has built.
--
Chris

Cariboocoot

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Guess I've just spent too many years helping to make the world work to give up on due to some bad weather or whatnot.

As for gambling that it won't happen in my lifetime, that's a pretty safe bet. You'd have almost won yesterday.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

ChrisOlson wrote: »

I have long said that if you try to boil this renewable energy business down to economics you may as well forget it. If all you're worried about is money, then just be happy counting your pennies you have saved up. But some of us believe, despite the costs of it, that's it's a long term better solution to the world's energy problems than the massive grid infrastructure with centralized generating facilities that society has built.
--
Chris

My thoughts exactly. So well said.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

As for gambling that it won't happen in my lifetime, that's a pretty safe bet. You'd have almost won yesterday.

OUCH! That does NOT sound good! Stay well "Coot", you'd be missed far more than you could ever imagine if you were to "retire' from this forum!
Hope you have a better day today!

niel

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

chris,
what i said was not to be going off grid just because of the remote possibility of this type of an event happening. there are many other reasons for having solar off grid though and, although very expensive, it is what we all understand about that aspect of going solar is about for we know it is expensive. as far as economics go i looked at it years ago and thought with the outages i was experiencing at the time causing food to go bad that right there was hundreds of dollars lost to me for each incident in 2 separate incidents in a matter of 2 weeks time from spoilage (early 90s costs), plus i had no food that was good to eat for a few days. i had a generator that was rendered useless because the gas stations had no power.

there are aspects that do warrant something for backup use, it just need not be complete that one should completely throw away the cheaper grid costs for when available. if one elects to go completely off grid do know i have no quarrel with them for doing it and they would be one of the few to afford or be privy to a complete solar setup replacing said grid. it's sad, but true that economics does play a part for most of us out here and it's not necessarily for the lack of wanting it to be as you say. some also can't fit as much in pv on their property or don't have good access to the sun even if $ is not a factor so know that what you have achieved is not always as easy for others to achieve no matter the reasoning for it. partial backups does make good economic sense for those on the grid. to go off the grid is fine for those that can afford it, but when the cheaper grid power is there few would opt to spend many times more just to be off of the grid completely. as i said that's fine if you can do it, but for the possibility of a carrington event as a reason for being off grid is holding ones breath for something that may not come in one's lifetime. there are too many legit reasons people do go off grid for and that a rare large event isn't or shouldn't be one of them as that is throwing $ away and i believe that you don't need to throw away your money just for the sake of being totally off the grid if there is cheap grid power available. now coot mentioned a huge backups, but that depends on the reliability of that said grid connection and what needs to be powered. going large just to have large backups is a luxury and an expensive one that most likely is frivolous to the rest of us. i certainly won't say it is wrong if one can afford it though, just overkill for most of us and most circumstances.

ChrisOlson

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

niel wrote: »

chris,
what i said was not to be going off grid just because of the remote possibility of this type of an event happening. there are many other reasons for having solar off grid

Neil, I think going off-grid and having a backup power system like 'coot is talking about (maybe not being worthwhile) are two real different things.

Living totally off-grid is because of the location, lack of utility power service (or too expensive to get), and other reasons for different folks.

Having an on-grid/off-grid backup power system provides a security blanket to keep critical things going in an outage. But unlike a standby generator (which is the cheapest security blanket), the off-grid system can be used every day to offset your utility bill. Note that I didn't say save you money. But I think the combination of being a security blanket, plus it can reduce your utility bill, makes it worthwhile to do.

Any off-grid system involves batteries. And those are the bad part. But for a combo on/off-grid system the batteries are usually not as big of a pill to swallow as for a full-time, full-fledged off-grid system.
--
Chris

Photowhit

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

I'm a poor child of 53, and kinda got hooked into doing off grid solar on a larger off grid home that won't be cheaper than the grid at current costs. It did make sense and I had a 'payback' date on my small cabin, but a change in rules made moving easier than fighting.

So I had the battery and it would be close on long term costs with this large part of the off grid system. That said the costs are getting close. I suspect increasing 'line fees' may put more people who are thrifty into a similar situation where off grid solar is a viable choice. I know my past 10 years of off grid life have provided more reliable energy than the available grid.

With no investment in solar I would have just connected to the grid. Even in the last year of being grid tied I've gotten lazy, I've thrown money at water heating and cooling of the place for convenience rather than living thrifty. I think living within and energy budget also makes sense and living more directly, taking responsibility for your actions makes sense.

If a guy who doesn't make $20K a year can make sense out of off grid system, I suspect it is within the ability of others. It's not as expensive as it once was. Those of us in the United States also have the advantage of the support of the 30% tax credit, which puts "off grid" solar even closer to the reach of the little people.

A quick look at my past systems puts the 'pay back' time line, with the 30% tax credit and my high electric coop 'line fee', at less than 2 years for my small 200watt system, and under 5 years for my 1000 watt system. Considering the lack of investment interest on the principal, and a minimal residual value of the array only.

Photowhit

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

ChrisOlson wrote: »

...Any off-grid system involves batteries. And those are the bad part....

With todays solar array to battery costs, a smaller battery bank with a larger array makes more sense in those of us who have greater needs in the summer. The advantages of smart charge controllers also adds to these making the available 'extra' energy that would typically be lost. Again making Off grid a bit closer to being practical.

niel

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

i think to a degree we are saying the same things in different ways and interpretations are getting jumbled. i'm not against backing up with solar as i do it. it just isn't realistic or economical for me to backup the whole house or taking it off grid because of a rare incidence cause. as i said there are other reasons for doing this and the whole house is not necessary to do for a backups.

Cariboocoot

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Part of the problem with rationalizing the economics of solar electric for grid-support (take some of the strain off the old and failing system) is the inequity in the cost of grid power vs. solar; some of the grid power costs at least are not realized in the monthly bill (failure from whatever reason aside). When you put in solar, all the costs hit you right up front. The cost of existing grid infrastructure amortized over seventy years is no longer "visible". Think of the massive public expenditure of the Rural Electrification Program of the 1930's: if they were to spend a like amount today maybe many of the grid's troubles could be eliminated or at least ameliorated.

But again the point of the thread: where you do have frequent and/or long term outages it does make sense to have more complex (expensive) back-up. I should know, having designed a few such systems myself.

On the bright side if catastrophe does strike the grid maybe it will finally get fixed! I've been hearing complaints about what bad shape it's in ever since I could understand the words. Seems it's still plugging along despite this, which suits the profit-makers just fine. Curiously that is a very powerful incentive to keep it up and running and repair it when it breaks down: no power sold = no profits coming in.

Until the day when they convince politicians that the utilities should be paid even for broken wires running past someone's off-grid house. :roll:

niel

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

i think i can say that given my age it would not pay for me to go overboard as i won't be around that darn long.

solar_dave

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

SO for roughly $1000 I can get 2000/4000 watts of backup off the two Volts to run the critical loads. Worth it financially? I doubt it, but that is a roll of the dice. One could easily lose a few hundred worth of frozen and refrigerated food in such an event. With a fully charged battery and a full tank of gas I make a rough estimate of a few days of run time with the Volt. The HV battery alone should go about 15 hours at 75% inverter load, then occasionally the engine can kick in to run the buffer back up some pretty quickly, say an hours worth per 10 minute run cycle.

There are a couple of guys out there that have done this and I am currently waiting on their feedback as to my estimates.

Cariboocoot

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

solar_dave wrote: »

SO for roughly $1000 I can get 2000/4000 watts of backup off the two Volts to run the critical loads. Worth it financially? I doubt it, but that is a roll of the dice. One could easily lose a few hundred worth of frozen and refrigerated food in such an event. With a fully charged battery and a full tank of gas I make a rough estimate of a few days of run time with the Volt. The HV battery alone should go about 15 hours at 75% inverter load, then occasionally the engine can kick in to run the buffer back up some pretty quickly, say an hours worth per 10 minute run cycle.

There are a couple of guys out there that have done this and I am currently waiting on their feedback as to my estimates.

This is of course based on the premise that you have the Chevy Volt to begin with. Otherwise it becomes a really expensive back-up plan!

solar_dave

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Cariboocoot wrote: »

This is of course based on the premise that you have the Chevy Volt to begin with. Otherwise it becomes a really expensive back-up plan!

That is a given! But I don't think there is a much cheaper solution if you already have them. :D

NorthGuy

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

I think it doesn't really make sense to argue about economics. The amortized cost of anything can be easily calculated. In every particular case, either grid or off-grid will be more economical. Arguing that grid is cheaper in every case is about equally silly as arguing that grid is always more expensive.

Even though Chris doesn't want to admit financial benefits of his off-grid system, he's a good example where off-grid came out more economical because he would have to pay almost $200K simply to connect to the grid.

It's been few months since I strated using off-grid power, and I really enjoy that I haven't had any outages, and that my energy is clean, and that I don't depend on anybody, and that I had a good time designing and building the system. But I also enjoy that I only have one last electrical bill to pay.

ChrisOlson

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

NorthGuy wrote: »

Even though Chris doesn't want to admit financial benefits of his off-grid system, he's a good example where off-grid came out more economical because he would have to pay almost $200K simply to connect to the grid.

It was $168K in 2001 just to go a half mile thru the woods and swamp. I could probably buy the whole solar panel factory for what they want today. But we like our location. Our apple orchard is starting to bloom now and our bee hives are active again. We wouldn't give it up today just because they don't want to run power lines thru the swamp.

and that I had a good time designing and building the system

It is definitely a lot of fun putting a system together and enjoying how it works. It has its bad days too. But there's more good than bad. One thing about off-grid living is that I don't know anybody who has ever made the move that wants to go back.
--
Chris

Cariboocoot

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

It most definitely makes sense to discuss the economics of it, especially as that is a major point of the whole issue: loss of electrical power in an outage will result in how much financial loss? Spoiled freezer full of food? If we could do without power indefinitely then there's no reason to have it at all, much less a back-up source.

So again we come back to the original premise: it does not make sense to invest in solar-recharged battery back-up power for two outages in three years that only last an hour or so.

Investing in the off-grid infrastructure where there is no practical alternative (as with my cabin) does make sense.

And in between those two extremes is a wide scale of power needs, losses from outages, and solutions to the problem.

It's just that too often we see people panic because their power has been off for a day this year and they want to buy solar back-up, never realizing how much it costs. We've even had people become confused when six different forum members tell them "get a generator"; they wonder if this really is a solar forum.

Well, it is. And what we are never going to say here is that everyone should run out and buy every bit of solar they can afford (Sell the car! Sell the kids!) and that way they'll have "free" power and save the world all at the same time. The practicality of it has to be examined in each individual case. There are no "one size fits all" solutions. The capital to buy the equipment has to come from somewhere, and if you don't have the money you don't get the power.

Organic Farmer

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

BB. wrote: »

... And add that we need to elevate gas water heaters and, now, even gas clothes driers in garages (so that they don't ignite gasoline fumes from cars in the garage)--I think it is adding to the worries about gaseous fuels.

You need to elevate gas appliances?

I have not heard about that. We have a LPG water heater and a clothes drier. Both of them are at floor level.

... The one that really worries me (don't hear much about the issues here) is propane. It is heavier than air and can settle in basements/low areas... Seems to be "more scary" for earth berm homes and basements.

The same as for Radon.

NorthGuy

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Cariboocoot wrote: »

It's just that too often we see people panic because their power has been off for a day this year and they want to buy solar back-up, never realizing how much it costs. We've even had people become confused when six different forum members tell them "get a generator"; they wonder if this really is a solar forum.

I think this happens not because people expect a low cost system. Rather, they think that solar panels alone (without anything else) can be used as a backup. I bet, many of those who installed grid-tie panels thought that they would have power during an outage.

ChrisOlson

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Cariboocoot wrote: »

So again we come back to the original premise: it does not make sense to invest in solar-recharged battery back-up power for two outages in three years that only last an hour or so.

'coot - my premise is that it for sure doesn't make sense to install solar/battery backup for two outages in three years that only last an hour. But is that the only time it gets used in those three years? I seems to me that once you have it it gets used every day if you have the system set up right.

There's two ways to set up a system like that, as far as I know:
- grid-tie and sell back to the utility but when the power goes out your battery backup still works.

- part of the home runs on grid power and part that has critical stuff like 'fridge or freezer runs on off-grid power permanently.

Either way helps soften the expense of the system because it helps reduce your utility bill and it is still there for the two outages in three years. Unless I misunderstand how grid-powered homes work (admittedly I have limited experience with it). But I thought I have read of some forum members here that do one of these two options I mentioned?
--
Chris

Organic Farmer

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Photowhit wrote: »

... If a guy who doesn't make $20K a year can make sense out of off grid system, I suspect it is within the ability of others. It's not as expensive as it once was. Those of us in the United States also have the advantage of the support of the 30% tax credit, which puts "off grid" solar even closer to the reach of the little people.

A quick look at my past systems puts the 'pay back' time line, with the 30% tax credit and my high electric coop 'line fee', at less than 2 years for my small 200watt system, and under 5 years for my 1000 watt system. Considering the lack of investment interest on the principal, and a minimal residual value of the array only.

Good point

I guess I make a tad more than you, and it certainly makes sense here.

RandomJoe

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

ChrisOlson wrote: »

There's two ways to set up a system like that, as far as I know:
- grid-tie and sell back to the utility but when the power goes out your battery backup still works.

- part of the home runs on grid power and part that has critical stuff like 'fridge or freezer runs on off-grid power permanently.

Either way helps soften the expense of the system because it helps reduce your utility bill and it is still there for the two outages in three years. Unless I misunderstand how grid-powered homes work (admittedly I have limited experience with it). But I thought I have read of some forum members here that do one of these two options I mentioned?

There's a third option between those, which I do. Part of the house is grid-only, the critical stuff is on a subpanel the inverter can feed, but the battery bank is only sized for truly 'critical' needs - thus can't handle 24x7 off-grid, but a lot smaller / cheaper. I switch to inverter in the early morning so I do use the battery bank some, then as the sun rises it takes over the rest of the day. At sunset the system returns to grid power overnight.

In an extended outage there are a number of things on the critical load circuits that would be turned off since they aren't actually "critical" to me, they are powered from the backup circuits because they are things I don't want subjected to every grid power bump. (Mostly my servers, instead of a little UPS on each one the off-grid system is One Big UPS.)

I also get additional "payback" in the summer now, since I went to the utility company's time-of-use plan. June to September my off-peak rates are dirt cheap (4.5 cents/kWh last year) and I just take everything off-grid - rain or shine - for the on-peak hours. If the day has been really gloomy and I used too much power I can still come out at least even if not a bit ahead by doing a partial bulk-charge with the inverter off-peak but I never had to do that last year. I can't keep the whole house cool this way, but I *can* run the 9000 BTU mini-split in the office straight off the panels (barely - only have 2000W) on hot, sunny days.

I've used crazy amounts of automation for a relatively small system just because that's one of my hobbies, but a simple version of what I do could still be done with just the programming available in the Outback Mate interface. I imagine other integrated systems have similar provisions.

techntrek

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Cariboocoot wrote: »

This is of course based on the premise that you have the Chevy Volt to begin with. Otherwise it becomes a really expensive back-up plan!

solar_dave wrote: »

That is a given! But I don't think there is a much cheaper solution if you already have them.

Accounting term "sunk cost". If you already have a Volt or Prius the investment is a sunk cost, and it only costs a little more to make them a viable backup power source. Plus then they are one of the most efficient gas-powered backup solutions. If you don't have a parallel/series hybrid car, it doesn't make financial sense to buy one just to act as a genset, agreed.

Organic Farmer

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

techntrek wrote: »

Accounting term "sunk cost". If you already have a Volt or Prius the investment is a sunk cost, and it only costs a little more to make them a viable backup power source. Plus then they are one of the most efficient gas-powered backup solutions. If you don't have a parallel/series hybrid car, it doesn't make financial sense to buy one just to act as a genset, agreed.

My wife bought a Prius hybrid, because as compared to her previous car [an Aveo] it cut her projected fuel consumption in half.

In her mind, the cut in fuel consumption paid for the Prius,

If we trade it in at it's 3-year point; going to a Prius Plug-in next, would cut fuel consumption in half again.

Assuming that fuel costs do not go back down to $3/gallon, having an off-grid source of electricity would allow her to continue the fuel economy, even on weeks when the grid is down.

solar_dave

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

solar_dave wrote: »

SO for roughly $1000 I can get 2000/4000 watts of backup off the two Volts to run the critical loads. Worth it financially? I doubt it, but that is a roll of the dice. One could easily lose a few hundred worth of frozen and refrigerated food in such an event. With a fully charged battery and a full tank of gas I make a rough estimate of a few days of run time with the Volt. The HV battery alone should go about 15 hours at 75% inverter load, then occasionally the engine can kick in to run the buffer back up some pretty quickly, say an hours worth per 10 minute run cycle.

There are a couple of guys out there that have done this and I am currently waiting on their feedback as to my estimates.

Here is the data I was looking for:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?8835-Volt-as-Emergency-Power-Generator&p=227799#post227799

Hello all,

Thought I'd share some data from my Volt/Backup Inverter setup and see how it might compare to others out there. Anyone interested in taking a look at this data and seeing if the usage seems reasonable?

I like others have hooked an inverter capable of handling at least 1500W directly across the battery terminals.

During my test, my house loads were mostly around ~700W.

When drawing off the Volt's traction battery, through the APM and the 12V battery, the car's display indicated that I used about 5.5kWh over a 7 hour period (~0.78kWh per hour). This is what one would expect with a 90% efficient inverter.

Now the data after the battery was used up and the car started to occasionally run the engine/generator:

If anyone has done this kind of test can you comment on whether the following is similar to what you've seen, after adjusting for your own individual electrical loads. Alternatively, can you post your data?

- The engine started up about every 10 minutes for about 1-2 minutes each time.

- I ran the house off this system for 12 hours (7pm to 7 am).

- There were the ~700W loads for about 6 hours, and probably 400-500W loads the other 6 hours (est about 7kWh used by house loads during this 12 hour test).

- During the 12 hour test I used 1.4 gallons of gas or ~0.116 gallons/hr.

- That is ~ 5kWh used per gallon of gas consumed (assuming an average load of 575W over the 12 hr).....Does this seem reasonable???? If there are 34kWh of power in a gallon of gas, this is only a 15% efficiency rate...............

- My "gas mileage range estimate" dropped by ~50 miles during this test or about 4.25 "miles" used per hour. If I assume that the Volt uses about 0.25kWh per "mile", that's about 12.5 kWh used during this 12 hour test, much more than my 7kWh estimate consumed. Might not be able to use the 0.25kWh per "mile" factor since car is not under "driving load"

Cariboocoot

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

See, with ten cent electric and $5+ a gallon gas British Columbia is nutso land for solar installs.

techntrek

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

solar_dave wrote: »

Here is the data I was looking for:
During the 12 hour test I used 1.4 gallons of gas or ~0.116 gallons/hr.

Sounds dead-on. During several 12 hour tests I've done with my Prius it has averaged 0.13 gallons/hour, operating the house normally, no conservation done.

NorthGuy

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Cariboocoot wrote: »

See, with ten cent electric and $5+ a gallon gas British Columbia is nutso land for solar installs.

There are so many places in BC where there's no grid at all. I remember we drove around a lake. The lake was long and relatively narrow. At the very end, there was a small village not connected to the grid. That was a really nice place. Many houses had solar panels, but some didn't. What surprised me is that noone had more than 4-6 panels.

I can't remember the name of the lake, but here's the picture looking along the lake towards the village.

Cariboocoot

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

Well there's no grid on most of the lakes in fact.
That's where most of the solar is, and most of the mistakes are made. Then they don't listen when I tell them how to fix it.

British Columbia is quite large and has a lot of lakes. Some of them are very small and hidden. We like it like that.

ChrisOlson

Re: Why NOT to invest in back-up power

RandomJoe wrote: »

There's a third option between those, which I do. Part of the house is grid-only, the critical stuff is on a subpanel the inverter can feed, but the battery bank is only sized for truly 'critical' needs - thus can't handle 24x7 off-grid, but a lot smaller / cheaper. I switch to inverter in the early morning so I do use the battery bank some, then as the sun rises it takes over the rest of the day. At sunset the system returns to grid power overnight.

Cool. I knew I had read about people juggling that somehow to make it work.
--
Chris