Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

System

Look at those beautiful welds! You get what you pay for. Yet another ripped off customer owns this one. No refund, no repair, no justice......... yet.
This is the same turbine in the air, less than 1 day after being commissioned. Notice that the tail vain pushed the flimsy stopper over, which caused the cheap, ultra-low quality, airfoil to contact the tail vain.
Don't forget, you also get that POS controller with it.
Don't you wish you had one of these?

Kim

BB.

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Kimberly,

This is a great educational post! 8)

Personally, I would like to see the brand/model/distributor's name attached and posted in the "Scam's" portion of this site...

However, I would ask Wind-Sun for their ruling regarding if this would be appropriate for this (their) site or not.

-Bill

niel

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

for a new wind genny you should not be seeing rust as i viewed on the first pic either. seems if it had held together and functioned that i'd have given it a year or so to rot away based on what i see.

Windsun

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

BB. wrote: »

Personally, I would like to see the brand/model/distributor's name attached and posted in the "Scam's" portion of this site...

However, I would ask Wind-Sun for their ruling regarding if this would be appropriate for this (their) site or not.

-Bill

Brand, model, manufacturer and/or links to those sites are OK, especially for "products to avoid" type posts.

We have seen some pretty bad products, but this one seems to be going for #1 of the year.

BB.

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Kimberly,

Just out of curiosity--Is this (was this) wind turbine installed in a turbulent area (trees, buildings, etc.)?

Rapidly spinning objects have a gyroscopic effect--which would make the turbine slower to react to changes in wind direction--A reason why the tail could slam into the spinning blades.

The other would be the pivot bearing preventing free pointing of the turbine (again, possibly gyroscopic forces binding the pivot bearing).

-Bill

nigtomdaw

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

This type of shoddy production really annoys me, in a world where resources are dwindling fast we have companies turning out junk (not just wind turbines) with little or no life span, these use more or less the same raw materials and energy to produce what a waste.

I know its not going to happen but we should have some point of quality control on all products rather than let them be field crashed by the unsuspecting customer. The throw away society we live in will be our down fall.

Sos for the rant but I learnt a long time ago that yu get what you payfor :grr

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Hello everyone,
I had a much earlier post "Buyer Beware" that warned folks about Four Seasons Windpower, a.k.a. FSW Turbines. This beauty of a wind turbine was purchased from them. Their website is http://www.fswturbines.com
Notice the pictures of the charge controller in my post "did you look inside the controller"
That very same charge controller was part of this wind turbine system.
A total piece of junk. Did you see the craftsmanship inside of the nacelle? Those welds are absolute trash, as is the stopper for the tail vane and the rest of the components.
FSW Turbines are pushing their VAWT units. These are a huge scam and have claimed outputs that are magical. Never mind the math and science.
I hope this post saves someone from buying this or a similar POS. You see identical units on Ebay. Same POS, just another lying importer.

Kim

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

It was installed on a high hilltop/mountain top with little turbulence. The Tommy-Taiwan copied stopper block wouldn't stop a Matchbox car, yet a heavy tail vane.

Kim

BB. wrote: »

Kimberly,

Just out of curiosity--Is this (was this) wind turbine installed in a turbulent area (trees, buildings, etc.)?

Rapidly spinning objects have a gyroscopic effect--which would make the turbine slower to react to changes in wind direction--A reason why the tail could slam into the spinning blades.

The other would be the pivot bearing preventing free pointing of the turbine (again, possibly gyroscopic forces binding the pivot bearing).

-Bill

mike95490

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

I guess I don't know what I'm looking at.

I see the rubber donut has shifted from an earlier position, (I see the mark it left) but I don't see what moved it.

Does the tail vane move in relation to the nacelle ? I thought it would be part of the whole nacelle assembly, and was to keep the rotary blades perpendicular to the wind. Why would it want to move itself ?

I'm a solar guy, haven't taken much interest in wind, except for a run with an old Air 403, which has it's tail fixed to the nacelle.

BB.

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

I would guess for this model the tail can fold 90 degrees to the wind if there is A) too much wind or somebody or a controller wants to turn the wind turbine off (batteries fully charged or shut down for maintenance/storm coming).

From the 2kW product glossy:

Turbine type: Utilizes tail vane for direction and auto-furling for intelligent output control

From another 200 watt manual:

Q: How long is the generator's life?
A: Approximately 15 years under normal operation.

-Bill

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Hey Bill,
Maybe the lifespan in the brochure was a typo and should have read 12 hours instead of 12 years. Too funny!

Kim

BB. wrote: »

I would guess for this model the tail can fold 90 degrees to the wind if there is A) too much wind or somebody or a controller wants to turn the wind turbine off (batteries fully charged or shut down for maintenance/storm coming).

From the 2kW product glossy:



From another 200 watt manual:



-Bill

BB.

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

kimberly cantrell wrote: »

Hey Bill,
Maybe the lifespan in the brochure was a typo and should have read 12 hours instead of 12 years. Too funny!
Kim

Well... Technically, the generator (Stator, magnets, and such) probably still work. It is just those long canoe paddles thingies that fell off for some unknown reason.

Reminds me of an old aircraft pilot's joke--"What is the thing on the front of the airplane for? It is a fan to keep the pilot cool--if it stops, watch 'em sweat."

-Bill

"Didn't say it was a good joke, just an old joke." :roll:

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

More of that outstanding Chinese quality. Who knew the Chinese had time to make wind turbines in between shooting Tibetans? The problem, well, one of them, are these cheap people out there who have been mesmerized with the "spin your meter backwards" crap. Hell, if that'd have been some politician that said that, everyone would say "Another campiagn lie!" Of course, these people won't be spinning their meter backwards with Four Seasons (sounds like a salad dressing, not a wind turbine) gennies or anyone else's. This whole "I'll spin my meter backwards and get a CHECK from the power company!" is such a joke, it beggars belief as to how anyone can be so gullible as to fall for this obvious hucksterism! "Step right up folks! Three balls for a dollar! Knock over the milk bottle and win the chance to spin yer meter backwards!" P.T. Barnum would have loved these people! Yeah, these people are running central AC in Las Vegas in August and they're going to spin their meter backwards. Fer sure! What these people need to spin is their heads back on straight.

That's where these Chinese gennies come in. The importer is trying to ride coattails and make a quick buck. Four Seasons didn't INVENT the concept; they just saw it and decided to cash in. Or at least try to. It would appear these gennies don't stay up long enough for their customers' checks to clear.

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

You guys are scarin me with the wind turbine stuff. Just curious (and this may not be the place to ask) how do the PV panels from China rate?

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Did this ever get resolved?

I'm asking because I'm researching new products for my business but I'm not going to carry anything that doesn't work... or at least isn't corrected.

Also, do you know which factory it came from (their site says the products come direct from the factory)? Thanks to your post, I will check into whether they have any quality control over the factories producing the turbines, that would be another important aspect I'd be critical of, aside from verifying power curve accuracy.

Thanks.

kimberly cantrell wrote: »

Look at those beautiful welds! You get what you pay for. Yet another ripped off customer owns this one. No refund, no repair, no justice......... yet.
This is the same turbine in the air, less than 1 day after being commissioned. Notice that the tail vain pushed the flimsy stopper over, which caused the cheap, ultra-low quality, airfoil to contact the tail vain.
Don't forget, you also get that POS controller with it.
Don't you wish you had one of these?

Kim

niel

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

resolved? i'm not quite sure of your meaning. i can say that at this time none of the small commercially made wind turbines seem to be measuring up in quality and/or cost effectiveness.

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

In the post, it said "No refund, no repair, no justice......... yet."

That would be my meaning about it being "resolved".

As for a small wind turbine company that measures up... so far I'm the most impressed with the Windspire. http://www.mariahpower.com/ They, like me, don't try to hide behind the "rated" power output (which is nothing more then a wind tunnel test, real wind doesn't have a constant force from a constant direction). More and more companies are now posting actual expectations depending on yearly average wind speeds, though there is still room for error there. Since a 12 mph average could be something like 0 one day, 24mph the next, then 12, then 6 and then 18... all over the place, which would most likely produce more power then a location that is consistantly 10 then 14 then 10 then 14. Why? Because those 24mph days will produce 8 times the energy then those 12mph days, and those 18mph days about 4 times the 12mph days, etc. A few 0mph days is easily made up for with the higher wind days. But, since it's obvious the wind tunnel ratings have no bearing on real wind production results, at least the companies that explain what you may expect from an annual average are trying.

boB

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

NetRat wrote: »

As for a small wind turbine company that measures up... so far I'm the most impressed with the Windspire. http://www.mariahpower.com/

Have you seen one of these work ? I haven't heard any reports yet. I have
heard that some institutions have tested these, but they are under an NDA
and are not allowed to divulge their findings.

I am very curious and am hoping these will work. We'll see.

boB

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Yes. This past Summer at Onekama Michigan, at the Michigan Energy Fair http://glrea.org/events/MichiganEnergyFair2008/index.php they had one installed right as you come in, it had by far the largest crowd of any of the exhibits, since it was actually working (the rest had samples and/or blades from their turbines in their booths). You could be 5 feet from it and talk in a normal voice and not know the thing was spinning. Very quiet.

WisJim

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

I have heard good reports about ARE and Proven brand machines. Many folks have Bergeys that they like, and the Jacobs 31-20 works well if properly maintained. My 65+ year old Jacobs 2.5 kw machine has been working for me since around 1978 and I don't see any reason not to expect another 50 years of use from it. I haven't heard of ANY chinese machines that actually work. I don't think much of the vertical axis machines I have seen, but Mariah is the only company making one that is actually having their product tested instead of just marketing it over the internet.

boB

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

NetRat wrote: »

Yes. This past Summer at Onekama Michigan, at the Michigan Energy Fair http://glrea.org/events/MichiganEnergyFair2008/index.php they had one installed right as you come in, it had by far the largest crowd of any of the exhibits, since it was actually working (the rest had samples and/or blades from their turbines in their booths). You could be 5 feet from it and talk in a normal voice and not know the thing was spinning. Very quiet.

Was it just spinning when you saw it, or was it actually generating electricity and power and doing some kind of work ?? Selling back to the grid ? If so, how much ? What was the (approximate) wind speed at that time ?? I understand that these are grid tie units the way they are shipped. AFAIK, there is no direct battery charging connection without some extra work involved.

Thanks,
boB

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

They get wired into a breaker in your breaker box (either straight to it or through a shut off box depending on local ordinances). If it's not producing more then you are using nothing goes to the grid, you simply pull less energy from the grid. To charge batteries you would need a DC converter (not something I've done). Wind speeds that day were fluctuating between 8 and 14mph, with gusts up to 18mph (as wind typically does in this area). Over a one hour span it would produce between .25 and .5 kWh of power, depending on how often the gusts happened and what end of the wind speed range was more prevalent. (I was there for nearly 6 hours, the wind had picked up during the day somewhat, not much, but enough to affect the production levels).

It says on their site that if you average 12mph winds you will produce at least 2000 kWh of power a year. By my calculations, that is a conservative number at that wind speed average. Give me a year and I'll be able to provide my own data on it as I believe I will be installing one for myself in the early spring.

BB.

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

According to their website--the actual power output at 12 mph is around 800-1,200 watts (I may be reading their chart wrong--very poor quality on the x/y axis numbers--appears to be watts vs MPH, but could be watts vs meters/second)... For some reason, the output curve seems to fall apart above ~11 mph (meters/second ????).

They have only announced manufacturing last October 2008... So, they probably don't have a long track record at this time.

By the way, "Kimberly Cantrell" turned out to be posting under several names here ("sock puppetting" by playing as a different user with poor experiences from another vendor, asking/answering "her" own questions, and such)--so it is difficult to filter fact from fiction with her posts (and she has never replied, that I know of, about "her" multiple user name posts).

-Bill

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

I believe that would be meters per second.

When looking at power curves remember, real wind out in the open does not move at a constant speed, ever. It fluctuates. For a bit it'll be more, for a bit it will be less. Sometimes a lot more or a lot less.

There are rated wind curves (via wind tunnel testing) for most products, but that is not what happens in the real world. Those fluctuations (that go on in a continual basis) greatly affect the amount of power produced. That is why more and more you will find reputable companies discussing actual expected production results from an annual average wind speed. They assume so many ups and so many downs, so many calm days, so many high wind days, and come up with expected production numbers. My house and my parents home (200 miles apart) are not going to have the same results.

mike95490

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Cut-in speed is 9mph. And it looks like the bearings will have a lot of side force on them. Brushless PM generator is good, if they have tight tolerances, and 5 yr warranty seems adaquete, but low.

BB.

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

I understand wind flows... Just going by their own chart and it shows power density dropping off dramatically.

And, I am not sure the 2nd chart is in Meters per Second... What appears to be 1,000 watts (transition from 800 to 1000 watts--I am sure that this is not 10,000 watts) reads ~"10"...

10 mph in the "spec" reads ~1,000 watts... if it is MPS, then 10mps would be 22.4 MPH which should be >5,000 watts... So, I think the second chart units are x00 Watts by xx MPH.

The reason I even mentioned the "output falling apart at >12 mph" is because many wind turbines seem to only have a sweet spot of ~12-25 or so MPH... Below 12mph, they generate virtually nothing, and above 25-30+ MPH, the HAWT tend to shut down (those that don't auto furl anyway)... And end up harvesting only a small amount of the energy possible (counting on harvesting much of your energy during 40mph+ wind storms is probably not a good plan anyway).

In the end, I don't have any knowledge of their product other than what Mariah Power has published.

Basically, a similar turbine to the PacWind designs... Still waiting to see any documented production numbes from those too.

-Bill

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Assuming you are looking at the 2nd graph on the test results page, it is in m/s. In a download (pdf) I have I was able to zoom in and read it. The bottom is in m/s and the side says "power delivered to grid". Also, on the download, was this paragraph:

Note: This initial data was provided by Windward Engineering, an
independent test facility, using an in-ground installation in real world
wind conditions, and scientific 1-minute average binned data. Final data
will be released once all electronic settings have been calibrated for
optimal performance. We expect final data to be even more impressive.

(link to pdf: http://mariahpower.com/images/windspire%20specifications.pdf)

BB.

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Thanks for the PDF...

The left "spec chart" is AVERAGE WIND SPEED and the scatter plot is then probably instantaneous wind speed.

I am not going to pretend that I know the technical difference between average wind speed over one year vs the instantaneous speed vs the Weibull distribution... So I took a look at Bergey's website and downloaded a 10kW Grid Tied Turbine spread sheet... Reasonably close in swept area (~10.5 m^2 for the Bergey, 7.43 m^2 for the Mariah).

Playing with the spread sheet--it seems that for equivalent swept area, the VAWT gathers much less power... And mounting on a shorter mast, a lot of energy is lost (due to turbulance/slowing of wind near the ground).

At 10m/s, the Bergey (10 meter as a mast height) outputs 4.59kW, while the Mariah outputs ~900 watts (0.9 kWatts).

I don't know if the comparisons are fair--the Bergey (I would guess) has its hub around 10 meters... Whereas a 10m Mariah would be the top of the rotating wings would be at 10 meters?

The Bergey is rated at 10kW peak, the Mariah at 1.2 kW peak(?).

-Bill

System2

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

BB. wrote: »

Thanks for the PDF...

The left "spec chart" is AVERAGE WIND SPEED and the scatter plot is then probably instantaneous wind speed.

I am not going to pretend that I know the technical difference between average wind speed over one year vs the instantaneous speed vs the Weibull distribution... So I took a look at Bergey's website and downloaded a 10kW Grid Tied Turbine spread sheet... Reasonably close in swept area (~10.5 m^2 for the Bergey, 7.43 m^2 for the Mariah).

Playing with the spread sheet--it seems that for equivalent swept area, the VAWT gathers much less power... And mounting on a shorter mast, a lot of energy is lost (due to turbulance/slowing of wind near the ground).

At 10m/s, the Bergey (10 meter as a mast height) outputs 4.59kW, while the Mariah outputs ~900 watts (0.9 kWatts).

I don't know if the comparisons are fair--the Bergey (I would guess) has its hub around 10 meters... Whereas a 10m Mariah would be the top of the rotating wings would be at 10 meters?

The Bergey is rated at 10kW peak, the Mariah at 1.2 kW peak(?).

-Bill

I didn't double check your figures, but all seems about right... (and yes, the Bergey blades would extend another 11' above the hub).

---

This from their site:

Connected to the grid, the BWC EXCEL can provide most of the electricity for an average total electric home at moderate wind sites. The all new GridTek 10 power processor (inverter) is the most advanced in the industry and it carries a full UL certification to the latest utility standards.

Prices, which include a voltage regulator or a grid-synchronous inverter, range from $23,500 to $29,500.

The BWC EXCEL is most often installed on a guyed lattice tower, which is available in heights of 18 m (60 ft.) to 43 m (140 ft.). Prices range from $10,150 to $17,200. Tilt-up versions of these towers are available for sites without crane access. Non-guyed lattice type towers and monopoles (tapered tubular) towers are also available to heights of 37 m (120 ft). Customers may also supply their own towers if they follow BWC's technical requirements for Excel towers (see Requirements).

---

I have a comparison spreadsheet partially completed, it shows the Bergey as able to produce 10,800 kWh a year if the average annual wind speed is 12mph. It also shows the Bergey costs between $40,000 and $55,000 installed depending on height, shipping, distance from structure, etc.

The Windspire is $6350 installed (based on $4995 for turbine, $350 shipping, $1000 install). It is able to produce 2,000 kWh per year at 12 mph average wind speed. 5 Windspires could produce as much as 1 Bergey, even at $6500 per turbine five would cost $32,500. Much cheaper then the Bergey.


That is why this particular product intrigues me the most (so far) of all that I have researched to date. Only thing is, it won't work on every site, it can't get above the trees if your property has them in or nearby. For that, I am looking at all the 5kw and 10kw models to try to find the best price per production at 80 feet of height. In fact, I was researching one such model when google led me to this site and this thread.

That same night I came across this company (who isn't in production yet) who is going to open a factory in the mid-west USA and I'm anxiously awaiting their information (both production and price). http://www.quantumwind.com/

WisJim

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

I think that a Bergey 10kw Excel-S on a 120 foot guyed tower would be close to $70,000 installed (based on recent system costs in Wisconsin), and on a freestanding lattice tower a few thousand dollars more. In a 12mph average wind area it might put out 13,000kw-hrs a year. But you have to remember, that 12mph wind speed is at the top of the 120 foot tower, and at 30 feet above the ground it will probably be more like 8mph wind speed, and perhaps less depending on vegetation, buildings, trees, terrain, etc. In order to get any kind of generator in the 12mph winds, they are going have to be high enough to be in those higher windspeeds, and high enough to be above turbulence from stuff on the ground. Remember that the rule of thumb "30 feet higher than anything within 500 feet" applies to ALL wind machines, not just horizontal axis machines.

Bob McGovern

Re: Inside a Chinese wind turbine nacelle

Forgive me for reviving a sleeping topic; some boards want to avoid unneeded new ones, others hate old ones dug up. This is about the Mariah Power Windspire, that 18' tall VAWT, and its apparent fate.

Kudos to the manufacturer for submitting one to NREL for controlled testing according to AWEA protocols. NREL, of course, carries on these tests and releases final reports at the manufacturers' discretion ... and it doesn't look good for the Mariah Windspire.

A minimum testing period of 6 months is required; the Windspire was commissioned for 7 months but only documented 4.8 months when testing was terminated. We await a final report, but....

The Windspire produced, on average, 22.5 kWh per month of operation. My 8' diameter Bergey could do that in about 3-4 days. Looks like the wind wasn't cooperating too well, but those are still egregious, embarrassing totals. This is a solid-looking design, probably as good as VAWTs will ever get, and it's wretched.

BoB is right, anything will spin round all pretty if it isn't under load. Hook that narrow VAWT up to a 1300W sink and watch it screech to a halt.