Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

solorone

After 30 years off grid I need to catch up on a few things. This is the year for new batteries, panels and would be smart to buy an inverter to have on hand. May or may not go over to new MPPT controller, but could use an educational link for them.

What is the difference between a Xantrex 4024 and a Xantrex 4024 MC2.

Has anyone noticed an influx of Xantrex 4024 for sale? What was the last year these were made?

How is the quality compared to Trace ownership. my 4024 is 14 YO and has had heavy heavy use.

Would like recommendations for another option for 4KW inverter charger in 48V. May stay in 24 volt and buy a controller, as it would make over head lighting less trouble. If I go to the48 V I might have large enough wire, 424 CM at 200', have not run the numbers of voltage drop yet, but that is not an issue now.

Trying to make up my mind about battery replacement of my 11 YO Surette setup. I have read of some disatisfation with Rolls/Surette, but they are supposed to last a good bit longer, and as rough as I am on them, they have proved that, lasting longer than anyother setup I have tried. Any other suggestions, would be appreciated right now I am considering, but not wanting, L16s. My budget for batteries is 8K.

Photowhit

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

Are you experiencing reduced capacity on your Rolls or are you just worried? I've heard of them lasting 15 years and more...

If your considering a new MPPT Charge Controller, I would look at the Midnite Classic, The owners came from Trace/Xantrex, via Outback and are making real strides in a true charge controller that does what you would like a charge controller to do, like start loads based on the batteries State of Charge (SOC) and measuring the current going into the battery via a shunt module rather than at the charge controller which doesn't measure the charge going into the battery since it doesn't take into account the loads on the system. They have an active forum here.

There are threads on this forum on storing backup electronics, basically I learned, they start aging once built. So if your not expecting to use them soon, it might be better to save the money for a replacement when needed.

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

solorone wrote: »

Has anyone noticed an influx of Xantrex 4024 for sale? What was the last year these were made?

How is the quality compared to Trace ownership. my 4024 is 14 YO and has had heavy heavy use.

2006 was the last year for the 120V SW Plus Xantrex models. After that they started with the XW-series, which are split-phase 120/240V. We went from a SW Plus 5548 to a XW6048 and IMHO the XW is considerably more capable than the SW-series was. The XW's are built insane heavy with copper in them. If you want a lighter one that you can carry around under one arm Magnum Energy makes some 4000 watt 24 and 48 volt inverters. The smallest 48V version of the XW, to my knowledge, is the XW4548.

If you are set up with 24V now and have no problems with handling incoming amps from solar or wind, I don't know why you'd change it.

I don't know what a MC2 is. Could that maybe be the 50Hz 230V overseas version of it?
--
Chris

solorone

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

My Rolls's are pooched. I have never heard of a batteries lasting 15 years, but then you have a massive array, and I would guess under those conditions the discharge would be minimal, easy life on the batteries. Not the case here, we just never seemed to get the system balanced out, what with kids in college and such.

Trace, from engineer to my ear said the life span of a SW inverter was thought to be 15 years, I am at 14 now. I would rather have one laying around than be a week or so without. I was surprised at how many were for sale new, I thought they quit making the 4024 SW, of course these are the MC2, my 1999 model has a place to mark it as a MC2.

solorone

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

I forgot all about the XW series. The SW 4024 weighs about 150# as I recall. Depending how many panels I add, I may need the new MPPT controller at 24 V, or maybe at 48 V, I can lower the voltage drop over the long run. I am not wanting to add another electronic device between the sun and my inverter.

If it has been 6 years since they were made, I wonder why there are so many sitting about for sale, one man had 10!! I always thought they were the Cadillac of inverters, and would be snapped up if out of production.

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

solorone wrote: »

If it has been 6 years since they were made, I wonder why there are so many sitting about for sale, one man had 10!! I always thought they were the Cadillac of inverters, and would be snapped up if out of production.

I don't know. We bought two brand new SW Plus 4024's a couple years ago with the GSM, whole nine yards. Then we decided to go 48 volt with a single inverter - not happy with the efficiency of the stacked setup. I sold the 4024's easily on Craigslist. We put in new SW Plus 5548, again bought it brand new in the box. I called Schneider on that one and asked about the warranty and they said they'd cover the new product warranty on it. Although if it ever had a problem it would have to sent into their repair center to fix it because of limited parts availability anymore in the field. We had a Outback PSX-240 on the 5548 for 120/240 power.

Then just a month ago we decided to go the XW because it's native 120/240 and has more power to run our loads. Going to the XW was a good move and it's everything the SW was and more. Again I advertised the SW Plus 5548 on Craigslist and sold it within a week.

I can only assume that the reason the SW's are hard to sell anymore is because they are the same price as the XW and you can't get parts for them if something goes wrong.
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Chris

solorone

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

Thanks, for the input. the SW 4024 MC2 is a marine/RV version almost the same except for being able to sell power and battery equalization, now that seems odd, but I reference this article, lack of equalization, and the point you made about price to the XW, is most likely why they are sitting on shelves. http://www.ourodyssey.us/bus-e-trace.html

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

solorone wrote: »

Thanks, for the input. the SW 4024 MC2 is a marine/RV version

Ah - I should've realized that too. Seems I read that someplace else before.

solorone wrote: »

and the point you made about price to the XW, is most likely why they are sitting on shelves.

I think so. You can buy a new XW4024 from NAWS for only $2376:
http://www.solar-electric.com/xaxwhyin.html

They want (usually) around $2500 for a new SW Plus 4024. And with the XW you get built-in split-phase power, a more modern unit, and a five year warranty. Of course, you have to buy the SCP for the XW, which is built in on the SW, and that's a couple hundred more. But still, it's pretty much a no-brainer.
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Chris

solorone

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

Well I think the XW will be the way to go, but I am, totally miffed at the extra controller price, why would they not build that in, it is a basic need/function, makes it feel like a rip off, or gotcha. Anyway that will be last thing I do, will see what $$ I have left, then I will keep the SW 4024 as an emergency spare, it would be worth way more to me than anyone else.

Now to decide on batteries, any input suggestion would be appreciated, as I said I am leaning toward Rolls, but wonder about recent negative threads. I have a battery re-cycler who will come and remove my 4 1/2 to 5 tons of batteries and pay .21 per pound. I will be glad to see them go. Used many setups over the years, and in the beginning, telephone batteries were the holy grail; inverters power supply needs soon made them a no go, I still have one the first Trace 1512 made. I have 48 cells plus the Rolls and others, that will be a nice payday.

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

solorone wrote: »

Now to decide on batteries, any input suggestion would be appreciated, as I said I am leaning toward Rolls, but wonder about recent negative threads.

I dunno. When we first got our batteries I was a little disappointed to learn that I have to absorb them at 62V to get the SG's up. And I wished I would've bought Trojans. But after two years with them now, and they don't show a single amp-hour in capacity reduction on a load test when I service them, I'm happy with them.

So it's my opinion that's it's nothing really wrong with the Rolls batteries. For somebody that has lived off-grid with batteries as long as you have, you know all the tricks and hoops that have to be jumped thru, and know how to identify and correct a problem before it becomes a problem.

I really think most of these negative threads are from people that don't have the experience with batteries. And they don't take into account that our RE chargers are different than the constant current industrial chargers that Rolls and everybody else uses to base their recommendations on. Not enough people get the hydrometer out soon enough, and some don't even own one. So by the time they realize there's a problem, it's too late.

So as an owner of a big Surrette bank I have nothing bad to say about them.

That's my 2 cents on it.
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Chris

solorone

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

What surrette battery do you have, how many and what voltage.
I will say right quick, old/long time, does not make smart. Have done a lot of dumb things in my solar life, but back then, I was on my own, no Inet and only books, some out dated. I was going to do major rebuild in 2006, as our setup was designed when we both working. 2006 , 07, 08. we both had cancer, and were contractors, got caught in the crash. We have muddled through with a system never designed for forcibly retired 24 hour living. yes I tweaked and have gotten all out of the Rolls they had to give. Back then it was thought that Arco panels might last 50 years, of course that was wrong, I also hope Clyde Yamamotos statement of a 15 year life span of Trace SW's is wrong also, to the good side. Our rack 1985 Arco's are dieing. I sometimes think I was better off with my homemade gas engine powered multi alternator charger, it had a potential of 180 A @ 12V, but I ran it at 1/2 power. That was some the cheapest power I ever produced. Somewhere here is a picture of the machine.

BB.

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

I think you are talking about this one?

solorone wrote: »

Home power 70s style

A not so green, power machine.

This is what I used to power my home in 83, used it for about a year, until I could buy panels.
Originally it had 3 alternators, with a potential of 160 to 200 amps, depending on which alternator I happened to have on it. The field was regulated by a rheostat, from a 1970 Cadillac dimmer control. This allowed me to keep the amp output at about 40/50%. The longest I ever got a used alternator to last was about a year, sometimes they would die in the first hour of use. Needless to say I kept a lot of $5 to $15 spares around.
Fuel cost was only about $13 a month. hated to stop using it, but was really glad to get maintenance free panels. Gas motors have a mind of their own, and it would sometimes refuse to start when it was most needed.

-Bill

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

solorone wrote: »

What surrette battery do you have, how many and what voltage.

We have T12-250's. They are 12V six cell, 200 ah. Four in series, six strings, 24 batteries.

We selected the T12's because they can put out 600+ amps each and we run our inverter at full load quite a bit. The big 12's will hold the voltage up without sagging under heavy load. That's not the right setup for everybody, though, because it's more cells and connections.

I sometimes think I was better off with my homemade gas engine powered multi alternator charger

LOL! You and me both, although mine never had more than one alternator on it.

Circa 2008

Attachment not found.

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Chris

solorone

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

LOL, yea the beast, still have it. It beat a 38 YO and 15 YO into the dirt one night, trying to get it started, and that was it. Notice the 500 and 600 MCM on the ground, still have 600 MCM run to inverter. Being in commercial construction had it's advantages, when it came to salvage, no one reused wiring back then.

vtmaps

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

solorone wrote: »

but I am totally miffed at the extra controller price, why would they not build that in, it is a basic need/function, makes it feel like a rip off, or gotcha.

You don't want built in controllers in any stackable inverter (outback, magnum, etc). One controller can manage several inverters... you don't want to pay for a built in controller on each of them.
--vtMaps

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

vtmaps wrote: »

You don't want built in controllers in any stackable inverter (outback, magnum, etc). One controller can manage several inverters... you don't want to pay for a built in controller on each of them.

I used to think the same thing as solorone too. But now I see that the separate control panel can not only control multiple inverters, it can also be mounted in a convenient location (such as ours is in the kitchen where we can actually look it without walking out in the utility room), and it controls the rest of the stuff in your system like the AGS (Auto Gen Start) and charge controllers (XW-MPPT).

For the ~200 bucks extra for the separate unit, it's really peanuts after buying a $3,000+ inverter.
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Chris

solorone

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

vtmaps
"You don't want built in controllers in any stackable inverter (outback, magnum, etc)."

Chris: " I see that the separate control panel can not only control multiple inverters"

I can appreciate that the industry has truly come alive over the last 15 years, and the advancement in the tech. of inverters and grid tie, make such a controller set very Spock, logical.

Now, if can we just get those 30% efficiency panels I have been promised since 83.

I gave up my tool room for my wife's craft room, at that time I emptied the filing cabinet, I had been a dealer for several companies, packed up all my solar literature, periodicals, news letters and mail between many, now existent company's, and letters involving the boys breakup and fight over the Real Goods Trading Company name. Lawyers from both sides wanted those. Wife suggested I throw it all out. " Are you crazy!" I thought it might make fun reading in 25 years or so.

ChrisOlson

Re: Xantrex ???? New panels and batteries

solorone wrote: »

I can appreciate that the industry has truly come alive over the last 15 years, and the advancement in the tech. of inverters and grid tie, make such a controller set very Spock, logical.

Indeed I think the advancements are pretty significant. However, the SW's were the yardstick by which all others were measured, and yet today remains one of the best off-grid inverters ever built. The new ones got more bells and whistles. But if you got a working SW setup and have a spare or backup power in case it goes south with age, the only reason I can think of to replace it is if you need more power because your needs have grown over time.

The XW here has proven to be a beast. It's way more powerful, and will carry huge overloads longer, than the SW Plus 5548. But the only reason we bought it is because my wife keeps coming up with new ways to load test equipment
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Chris

solorone

I was doing a search and ran across this old post, thought I would just update it.. We are really enjoying the new technology. We have long cloudy spells here, and we designed for that. This last winter and this cloudy spring, has shown we made some choices. We are getting 20 A @ 24 V under the heaviest clouds, and general cloudy weather gives us 40 to 60 A. Just looking at the calendar, it has been 21 days since we have cranked a genset. I found myself running one yesterday just to lube it up some. Folks life is sweet. There is no way, way back In the beginning, when we started down this road, I would have thought we could or would have such an awesome setup. On cold sunny days we run 3 KW of electric heaters, and are now looking to install a mini Split of some sort, I need to educate myself on those. The SW 4024 was taken down and lovingly wrapped and placed in its original box. Yes the XW is a beast, and there are a lot of bells and whistles. Life is good.