I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0

Symptom was >2 second 120 V line to inverter transfer. When line power went out, all electronics connected to the inverter would go off for a few seconds until the inverter clicked in. I called the Xantrex/Schumacher folks and they told me the transfer relay was magnetized. I accessed the AC board just by removing screws to get the part number of the relay and ordered the same part $5 http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=11-2420&catname=, now a discontinued surplus item. A high wattage soldering iron is required as the relay solders to both top and bottom pads of the AC board. Buttoned it all up to find the symptom is corrected. 16ms phase matched UPS style transfer is restored. I called back Schumacher to thank them, they appreciated the follow up and were surprised somebody went with their advice. :p

Also while in there I noticed the AC ground wire took a tortuous path from the relay to the chassis due to the method Xantrex uses to provide the option of disabling Automatic Neutral to Ground Bonding. Since I'll never disable this, I hardwired the relay to the chassis, bypassing a weak point (the wire was a little heat damaged, perhaps the reason the relay failed, because I don't think the inverter switched anywhere close to the lifespan of this relay 100k at 25A or 10million no load actions).

I needed the cash this month and tried to sell it on eBay, listing all I did to refurbish, but nobody bit!

Comments

  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0

    Might have sold if you hadn't mentioned the repairs. Repairs, no matter how well done, scare the crap out of people when not completed by the factory.
    Repairs to inverters etc scare people at the best of times, they wonder how long it will last, or if it even works any more.
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0

    FYI, I see the surpluscenter has the DELTROL CONTROLS 375P series relay listed. These are used in the SW series. Unfortunately the coil is 120vac instead of 12vdc but if you need a replacement for bad contacts you can alway swap out the 12vdc coil from your old relay.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925 ✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0
    Might have sold if you hadn't mentioned the repairs. Repairs, no matter how well done, scare the crap out of people when not completed by the factory.
    Repairs to inverters etc scare people at the best of times, they wonder how long it will last, or if it even works any more.

    Wayne,

    I am the one who would be afraid of repairs (regardless of where they're made). Very often something in the system is out of wack, which causes other elements to fail. For example, capacitor melts down. Someone replaces the capacitor and the system appears to be working, but the original problem is still there. You buy it, start using it, and capacitor melts again. I've seen such things many times.
  • KC-wattsKC-watts Solar Expert Posts: 37
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0

    I agree about the frailty of high frequency inverters and will just have to keep on trucking with this one. There's like a 1000 discrete components on 4 separate boards (one of which has multi-layered tracing), multiple programed IC chips, and lots of slotted connections. The large 105 C capacitors are manufactured by a quality company, the boards are comformally coated, the transformers are decent sized to for a HF device, and multiple patents are held on much of the design. The 35 lbs Prosine 2.0 seems a hybrid of modern import HF inverters and large 60 Hz inverters. Prosine can surge 55 A for about a second or 35A for 10 seconds, better performance than some low frequency inverters.

    Another tip. The unit fits perfect inside a water-resistant Stanley FlatMax 28" tool box when placed in upside down (approved mounting position).
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0

    Sounds like an awesome inverter, so if it's fixed and working properly, why not keep it as a spare, even if you don't have an immediate use for it?
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Wayne,

    I am the one who would be afraid of repairs (regardless of where they're made). Very often something in the system is out of wack, which causes other elements to fail. For example, capacitor melts down. Someone replaces the capacitor and the system appears to be working, but the original problem is still there. You buy it, start using it, and capacitor melts again. I've seen such things many times.
    To be honest NorthGuy, in my past life in electronics, I've seen untold butcher jobs, and I've also seen many exploded capacitors. They can make quite the mess when they go off, and scare the crap out of the owners too. lol
  • KC-wattsKC-watts Solar Expert Posts: 37
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0
    Sounds like an awesome inverter, so if it's fixed and working properly, why not keep it as a spare, even if you don't have an immediate use for it?

    It's OK, the 100 A charger is even cooler (every stage is completely is programable). They either got a bad reputation when Xantrex stopped servicing them, or they really do eventually throw codes and die. I'm thinking the former. I'd get vocal if a $1500 device was no longer supported by the company and even more insulted when the company offers to knock 15% off a new one (from MSRP).
  • boBboB Solar Expert Posts: 983 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0
    KC-watts wrote: »
    I called the Xantrex/Schumacher folks and they told me the transfer relay was magnetized.

    Is THAT what they told you ??? That's pretty funny ! I highly doubt that though.

    I bet more than likely what happened was that the relay contacts welded shut.

    Relays turn on and off by electromagnets. We used Deltrol's for many many years and
    they never stuck on because of getting "magnetized". I think they're pulling your leg
    or that is something the support person has been told to say to the customer.

    That's my educated guess anyway.
    boB
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0
    boB wrote: »
    Is THAT what they told you ??? That's pretty funny ! I highly doubt that though.

    I bet more than likely what happened was that the relay contacts welded shut.

    Relays turn on and off by electromagnets. We used Deltrol's for many many years and
    they never stuck on because of getting "magnetized". I think they're pulling your leg
    or that is something the support person has been told to say to the customer.

    That's my educated guess anyway.
    boB
    Maybe they forgot the 1 " drop method to fix it. That usually knocks them loose.
  • boBboB Solar Expert Posts: 983 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0
    Maybe they forgot the 1 " drop method to fix it. That usually knocks them loose.


    That's what I do ! Either that or a swift smack with a screwdriver handle.
  • KC-wattsKC-watts Solar Expert Posts: 37
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0

    The condition wasn't permanently welded tabs. The relay was still active, just slow. When I was plugged into AC mains, the relay holds the AC output contacts to AC mains. When I unplugged AC mains to the unit, all AC power passing through also is unplugged for a few seconds until the magnetized relay contacts give to spring pressure falling onto the inverter. Symptom was entirely corrected with a new DPDT relay, without changing a single other variable. Makes sense when a unit is used as a UPS. The electromagnet will pull a field 24/7 around those contacts, causing them to take on magnetic properties. I never before heard of this phenomena, but also never needed a relay application for 16 ms.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0
    KC-watts wrote: »
    The condition wasn't permanently welded tabs. The relay was still active, just slow. When I was plugged into AC mains, the relay holds the AC output contacts to AC mains. When I unplugged AC mains to the unit, all AC power passing through also is unplugged for a few seconds until the magnetized relay let the contacts fall onto the inverter. Symptom was entirely corrected with a new DPDT relay, without changing a single other variable. Makes sense when a unit is used as a UPS. The electromagnet will pull a field 24/7 around those contacts.
    Depending on what got magnetized and how it happened, you might have been able to unmount the relay and just stick it through a strong degaussing coil.
    One way that the core or pole pieces of a relay can get residual permanent magnetism is a very high current surge in one direction only (less than half a cycle in duration.)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • boBboB Solar Expert Posts: 983 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0

    Pretty weird.

    Either way, a good smack should have released the stuck contact.
  • KC-wattsKC-watts Solar Expert Posts: 37
    Re: I repaired a Xantrex Prosine 2.0
    boB wrote: »
    Pretty weird.

    Either way, a good smack should have released the stuck contact.

    I bought the unit second hand in a lot with other solar equipment. BTW, Are we recognizing lot sales with about 5-10 years use (ie, owner didn't want to shell out for a first or second replacement lead acid battery bank)? No panel in the lot so I'm hoping they at least went to the grid tie.

    Xantrex/ Schumacher technical support is the genius behind fixing my inverter. When I did the polite follow up call to thank them it turned into some real mushy stuff like "these are rare days when we help, rather than recite RMA's and palatalize broken units to head off to China." Also, said schematics aren't even available to him or anyone around him anymore.

    Transient surge! Yes, perhaps. When I got inside the chassis, the chassis ground wire connecting to the neutral disconnect relay was heat damaged. It was easier to say I beefed it up rather than repaired damage; I'll learn eBay soon enough. Do you think the previous owner skipped grounding the chassis to earth?
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