poll of sort, length of electronic life

gww1

It is mentioned many times that inverters and such have a ten year life. I have had washing machines last 20 years. what is your real life experiance in length of time run for your electronics and when you have had problims do you repair or buy new?
Thanks
gww

PS
If you don't just repair, why?

solarix

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Old stuff that was all electric like your washing machines are generally good forat least 10 years. New consumer stuff that pretty much always has electronic controls ie computerized, you are doing well to get 5 years. Solar inverters etc. are not your average consumer crap, they are built to more like industrial standards and should go for a long time despite being hard working (high power), and very computerized. All three of mine are doing well, but only 2 to 4 years old.

Ralph Day

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

2004, Xantrex 4048 inverter...right out of the box didnt' work right. Replaced. Replacement failed at 1.5yrs...repaired and working fine since 2007.

Outback MX60 worked fine for 8 years then the button board and fan started to fail. The button board was hard to get the buttons to initiate actions. Home replaced for minimal cost.

Home stereo Denon, 20+ years working justa fine. TV sets 15 years usual lifetime. It's the little electronic things that live fast and die young with me.

Ralph

BB.

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Many power devices include electrolytic capacitors which tend to dry out over time.

Also, thermal cycling and heat are drivers for failure in electronics.

I am the guy that usually says 10+ year life. Your devices may last longer, but I would suggest having savings planned to replace the inverters and charge controllers after 10 years just in case. It is not unusual for the failures to be repairable, but with electronics these days, few places will repair devices over 5-10 years down the road. And it is also difficult to get parts too (micro processors and power electronics generally only have a 2-4 year production life).

-Bill

gww1

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

I bought a 2005 outback gvfx3648 dual inverter system with one mx60 cc. It was used, I was told, for 4 or 5 years and then taken out of service due to not starting a geo thurmal furnace. Thats the story. I have stored it for a while and can't put it in till this fall or winter. I am keeping my fingers crossed and know this post won't really change anything but am just trying to figure (if it all works) what I might exspect out of it. I bought it off craigslist and kind of believe the guy that sold it to me's "story". He had more then one to sell and said the guy replacing them had ten sets.
Always scary buying used. Thanks Ralph and solarix.
gww

Posted While I was typing. thanks Bill

waynefromnscanada

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

I've been very lucky, only had one inverter kick the bucket and that was years ago when there was a lightening strike at the camp.
MX-60 still going like new after 5 years. one SureSine-300 likewise after 5 years. Second one 3 years old is also doing awesome, as is the Xantrex 1800/12. Also have much older MSW inverters from years gone by, never failed, but replaced to get PSW. OH, I did destroy one of the smaller Morningstar MPPT controllers a couple or more years ago - - fed it too high a voltage from the hydro turbine. Replaced it with a more powerful and higher voltage controller and no more problems. At least not yet.

nsaspook

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

I've got a Denon DRA-345R from about 1992 and a Pioneer SX-450 from 1976 that's used every day, these babies were engineered and built like tanks. I have a few Fluke digital meters that are 30+ years old.
A 10-15 year lifetime for modern consumer power electronics is about normal.

waynefromnscanada

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

nsaspook wrote: »

I have a few Fluke digital meters that are 30+ years old.
A 10-15 year lifetime for modern consumer power electronics is about normal.

Oh yeah I had only been thinking solar. My Fluke 75 is now 23 years old and other test equipment far older than that. Even my Midland portable two way radio that through the years I dragged through the woods on searches through rainstorms etc and through the smoke on fire scenes, still works like new at the ripe age of 16. It's now retired from portable use and is on in search mode 24/7.

BB.

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Remember you are dealing with power devices here... Generally have larger capacitors which tend to be Electrolytic. And they generate heat--lots of heat if operated under heavy loads. And the old engineering rule of thumb, for every 10C rise, life it cut by 1/2. A 30C rise, 1/8th the estimated life vs room temperature.

Decades ago, I used to evaluate disk drives for computer systems (and support the data controllers). I could put disk drives in a thermal chamber and simply temperature cycle them twice a day from minimum to maximum operating specs and 3/4 of them would fail in two weeks (the others, the good quality drives, would never fail).

The old way of starting up electronics that have been in storage a long time (such as electronic flashes) would be to power them up for a few minutes, then shut them down for an hour or so... Do that a couple times, then operate under light load a few times, shut down and do that a few more time. Basically to "reform" the capacitors before stressing them (old capacitors and heavy current means they can overheat from high internal resistance).

Don't know if that would help with your inverters--But it does not cost you anything to bring it up "slowly".

-Bill

Photowhit

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Lets see, I have an Ampro AC DC clamp meter that's @15 years old and works fine, I replaced it with the Sears $50 meter which failed 2 months out of warranty but went back to the Ampro(it's clamp only and I thought I could just keep one meter in my electric bag) I've Got a Specialty Concepts Mark IV charge controller that was still working when I took it down @6 years ago that was made in the '80's I think. I had a Pulse energy Charge controller taken down by Lady bugs and replaced it with another from around 1999 that is still working. I've had 3 prosine inverters 1 - 12v 1800 watt Prosine that was built around 2002, and 2 - 1800 watt Prosines built in '04 and '08 that are both up and running.

Wayne's inverter is also a Xantrex Prosine, Xantrex makes a couple cheaper 1800 watt inverters now, the prosines have been around for a while and at least the non charger versions have a pretty good reputation. The 'Prowatt' and Pro Series' don't have the track history of the Prosine.

mtdoc

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Bill's point about electrolytic capacitors being the weak spot for power electronics (as it is for many electronics) has me thinking that I should peek inside my Outback inverter and take an inventory of the caps to be sure I keep some of the right size and type on hand. I would think that replacing the caps on a dead, out of warranty inverter would not be too difficult and might squeeze more life out of it, saving $$$

Has anyone successfully revived an older, dead inverter by doing this?

What besides the electrolytic caps would be the most likely failure point(s)?

solar_dave

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

I have an Adcom preamp/tuner that just died after I would guess 25 years, the associated Adcom Amplifier is still OK.

My GTI are only 3 years old but solid so far.

gww1

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Thanks everyone. I would be interested in mtdoc's questions also. Bill I will try the slow start.
gww

NorthGuy

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Relays are likely to fail sooner if worked hard.

I listen to my XW CCs clicking back and forth at dusk and dawn, and think that may be I'll need to replace all these relays within few years.

westbranch

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

MX60's do that too, anybody have one fail yet?

ggunn

Re: poll of sort, length of electronic life

gww1 wrote: »

It is mentioned many times that inverters and such have a ten year life. I have had washing machines last 20 years. what is your real life experiance in length of time run for your electronics and when you have had problims do you repair or buy new?
Thanks
gww

PS
If you don't just repair, why?

The calculator on my desk that I use numerous, sometimes hundreds of times daily (an HP 41-CV), was made in 1983 or so and I have only changed the batteries twice. I have a Sansui receiver in my studio which I still use occasionally that I bought used for $40 in 1978. My Fender Deluxe Reverb was made in 1964. Some things were built to last.

techntrek

Re: poll of sort, length of electronic life

The color monitor I used with my third computer (an Atari 130xe) from about 1987-1989, then used as a TV for years (VCR as tuner), and has probably been in very hot/cold attic storage for the last 10+ years... just used it on Sunday as the TV in our bathroom during the Superbowl. Perfect picture.

That computer - and the two I got before it in 1985 and 1986 - both work. The tapes/disks aren't readable anymore though. External hard drive interface and the hard drive for that computer are dead.

My first stereo and CD player purchased in 1986 both still work. The cabinet stereo my parents bought some time in the 70's still works. Their first VCR from the early 80's lasted until just a few years ago.

waynefromnscanada

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

And I recently dug out my old 1978 Kenwod KA 3500 amplifier, cleaned the controls and switches (it's been in storage for over 10 years) and am now using it in my resurrected sound system. Still working just like new after all these years. But best of all, I was shocked at it's low power consumption at no to low volume settings. Expecting more or less 25 to 40 watts I nearly fell over to see the Kill-A-Watt report 6 (six) watts! Of course if the volume is cranked up, this unit delivers at least 35 watts per channel (total 70 watts) BEFORE the total distortion rises above 0.05%, and thus it's consumption rises accordingly. Thing is, my usual listening level results in a 6 watt draw. That's much less than my 12 volt automotive radio I've been using for radio reception. Now, since the satellite receiver has to be always on anyway, for just 6 more watts I've got my radio over satellite, and in much higher quality sound!
The classic KA 3500: https://www.google.ca/search?q=Kenwood+KA+3500&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=MRk&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=uEYSUeCxBJKy0AHDl4HADg&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1173&bih=525

OH! And I did power it up with no load for about 10 hours, to allow the old electrolytic capacitors a chance to "wake up" before they had to start working hard again.

Rybren

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

I've had two LCD monitors and one laptop LCD die on me with less than 2 years of use on them. Of course, the warranty had expired on all three.

solarix

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Just replacing electrolytic caps on failed circuits is iffy as a fix. When caps age, they become less efficient and not only heat themselves up (oftentimes exploding) they also place more stress on the associated circuit (transistors etc.) and damage them as well.

Another common cause of electronic failures is (of course) solder joints. As circuits heat and cool, the solder joints holding everything together expand and contract a slight bit and over time the solder eventually cracks. If the geometry of the joint is good and the solder has some flexibility (why solder used to have lead in it) to it, the thing will go pretty much forever, but if the joint is thin (single sided pcb's or inexperienced pcb designer), if the solder is lead-free (required almost world-wide now), and the temp cycles are large, failures are just a matter of time.

I used to design pcbs and still get the trade mags. Switching to lead-free solder (forced on it by the EU) has been a very challenging effort to the industry. I don't care what they say about lead-free solder, it doesn't work near as well as the good old stuff. Probably worth it to keep lead out of the landfills, but what's worse? leaded circuits that last forever or landfills full of short-lived stuff that is lead-free?

With a practiced eye, you can see the cracking on a solder joint. Every 5 years or so, take apart your electronic stuff and inspect all the solder joints and resolder the suspect ones with 60/40 leaded solder.

gww1

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Solarix
Is there a case to be made of replacing the electrolytic caps prior to failure, there by saving the (transistors, ect) from possible damage? Or, if it aint broke don't fix it?
Thanks
gww

john p

Re: poll of sort, lenght of electronic life

Large electro caps are usually only prone to failure if opperated near their limits and or over their limits in most switch mode powers supplies. Most caps used in switch mode power supplies were never designed to opperate at frequencies above 100.
If you have such power supplies it may be an advantage to replace them each 3 to 5 yrs but doing so may end up costing more than a new power supply.
In audio equipment .ie, power amps ,pre amps the caps will usually live as long as the remainder of the components,providing adequate ventilation is available.Circuit board corrosion can cause an early demise of equipment, but if manufactured well with good board coating it should not be a problem.
How long can electronic components last?? Not easy to answer as there are many amplifiers and pre amps etc in peoples homes that have been in use since the beginning of solid state devices the mid to late 60,s. Iwas a amplifier ,pre amp,audio mixer manufacturer and know of equipment I built still in use from early 70,s. To the best of my knowledge Iwas the first manufacturer to build high power(above 200w a channel) amps using Motorola MJ15003,s and 4, in 1974. Motorola at the time told me I was the only one they were exporting them to from USA.. The amps were built for live bands and discos but some were modified for higher fidelity for home use and I know a few examples still in use thats 39 yrs, and all parts original. All were built using lead/tin solder as everything else was extremely difficult and expensive to obtain.Since about 2000 I have used when building the ocasional amp,pre amp silver solder as its now easy to get and solder stations are temperature adjustable for it something not available in early 70,s.