Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

NorthGuy wrote: »

If you're going to use them in 2x2 configuration, you need to match both Vmp and Imp. It may be a good idea to see if temperature coefficients are simiplar.

If you wire them all in one string, you only need to match Imp. However, this will require an MPPT controller, which you probably need anyway if you're planning to expand.

If I wired them all one string, wouldn't that make it 48 V ? I am planning on having the 2 strings of 24 V go onto the same contacts on the charge controller . . . if that would alter anything or not. . .

If you're going to buy 1000W more of panels, it's a good idea to match everything as close as possible. This will give you a flexibility in the future.

I will have separate charge controllers for the larger array, so it shouldn't effect the smaller array. . . ummm.... right ?

Hopefully both controllers will be mppt. . have not started shopping yet . . want to make sure this idea will fly . .;)

NorthGuy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Skippy wrote: »

If I wired them all one string, wouldn't that make it 48 V ?

That's why you cannot use the single string with PWM controller. It is perfectly fine with MPPT because MPPT will convert the voltage to whatever batteries need. With PWM, you'd need 2x2.

Skippy wrote: »

I will have separate charge controllers for the larger array, so it shouldn't effect the smaller array. . . ummm.... right ?

I thought you were going to add to the existing array. This way you would need only one controller and everything would need to match.

If you have separate arrays with separate controllers, then the panels from different arrays, of course, don't need to match.

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

NorthGuy wrote: »

I thought you were going to add to the existing array. This way you would need only one controller . . .

Thank you for the input. . . I was thinking of going with a smaller charge controller now (morning star 15 amp mppt) - since I don't have a whole lot of expansion room on top of the hydro pole I am using (I can fit 1 more panel though) . . and then once I get the smaller array up and working (and paid for ! ) . . I will - most likely - want more power to play with. . . then I can go out and get a second charge controller, with all the panels (max amps) I can fit on it. . . mounting the panels elsewhere . . (I always wanted a new shed )

What do you guys recommend ? If I try to put it all on one controller, the morning-star 60 amp charge controller is 524 $, but, can I still buy the matching panels that I need a year down the road (after I get it all paid for) ? By getting a separate controller, I can wait and get different panels that don't HAVE to match exactly . . . does that make sense to you guys ?

The original idea has everything at 24 V : If you have any better ideas, feel free to correct me .

Fridge : using kw meter : .65 kwh per day.
washer : using kw meter : .20 or so - kwh per load of laundry x 3 loads would be .60 kwh - if the batteries are fully charged.
The only thing that will be on this system 24/7 is the fridge, but have the option of running the washing machine - toaster oven - microwave - when the sun is shinning or have excess power . .

the first array would be the 4 panels, with a (morning star 15 amp mppt) charge controller . ..
an example of the second array, would be - morning-star tristar 45 amp mppt controller with 4 or 5 - 215 watt Kyocera panels. . .

What size of battery do you recommend ? 650 A/H too big for these arrays ?

If I have to get 2 controllers. . . it would be about 220 $ for the small one, and 409 $ for the bigger one. . .

Hope this all makes some kind of sense to you guys - picking up the pieces as I can afford them . . . put the smaller array together first, take it easy on the batteries . . . then as soon as possible, add the larger array too boost the current . . any advice would be appreciated.

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

O.k. So I have the panel info here,

Attachment not found.

Do the guys at A.W & S monitor these threads at all, or do I call and describe what I need over the phone ?

I need 1 panel too match this one.

Cariboocoot

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Skippy wrote: »

O.k. So I have the panel info here,

Do the guys at A.W & S monitor these threads at all, or do I call and describe what I need over the phone ?

I need 1 panel too match this one.

No, NAWS does not regularly monitor this forum for business purposes. You'd need to contact them directly to see if they have any similar panel available.

On the up side, it's basically a "12 Volt" panel and any with a Vmp near that 18 Volts would work in parallel or an Imp around 6 would work in series.

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Cariboocoot wrote: »

No, NAWS does not regularly monitor this forum for business purposes.

Thanks, I will give them a call.

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

O.k. . . so I called them up to order the new panel. Did fairly good at matching the numbers. Unfortunately, the shipping will be the same price as the panel. 291 for the panel, and 280 for shipping, plus the "front door surprise" . . for crossing the border. . .

Someone offered to show me panels in Canada for 1$ a watt ?

I have a quote here on the inverter and the charge controller, but if someone can quote me a place closer to home, I may have to look into the new guys prices....

westbranch

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

you need to search Canada 411 and the Net for suppliers in Canada. here is a prairie link. http://www.wsetech.com/gridpv.php

Rybren

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Skippy,

I can give you the contact info for the guy that I got my used 210W Grid-Tie panels from; they were a fair bit less than $1/W. He's in the Kempville area. Note that the panels specs are:

Max Power (Pmax), (Wp) 210
Max Power Voltage (Vmp) 29.1
Max Power Current (Imp) 7.2
Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) 37.0
Short Circuit Current (Isc) 7.7

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Rybren wrote: »

Skippy,

I can give you the contact info for the guy that I got my used . .

Never thought about buying used. . . can someone refer me to the thread on buying used panels . . I figure SOMEONE has started a thread on this topic !

Right now, I am kinda leaning toward un-used ...

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

westbranch wrote: »

you need to search Canada 411 and the Net for suppliers in Canada. here is a prairie link. http://www.wsetech.com/gridpv.php

That is a neat site, thank you. I did a few searches, and alot of people in this area are only dealing with micro-fit panels - 30 to 70 volts . . . I did find one place based in Vancouver, but they don't sell in Ontario anymore BECAUSE of the micro-fit thing . . . they gave me the number of a place closer to home, but since its 6 oclock here, they are closed.

On the plus side, I had one dealer tell me that morning star charge controllers are some of the best in the business . . and, that the price quoted from AW&S is pretty close to what he can quote . . he didn't think much of the samlex inverter though . . go figure.

Will keep you guys updated as I work thru this thing. . left a few messages, will see what happens.

Muskoka

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Skippy, are you anywhere near Orillia, Ontario?. I just bought a kw of panels from EDI in Orillia, they are a electronics re cycler / outlet store. They have (did have) a bunch of panels for sale. They are brand new, but they're big, 39"wide x 78"high. You'll need a MPPT controller as well. The best part was the price, 265 watt panel for $125, $.47 per watt and no shipping charge, picked them up ourselves. If your anywhere close by it would be worth the drive. I only needed a few more, but my buddy bought 20 of them at that price. They are very nice, come with the junction box, and 3 ft of cable with MC4 connectors. Here are the specs from the panel.

Glen

Attachment not found.

Photowhit

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Muskoka wrote: »

Skippy, ...They are brand new, but they're big, 39"wide x 78"high. You'll need a MPPT controller as well. The best part was the price, 265 watt panel for $125, $.47 per watt and no shipping charge, picked them up ourselves.

I don't want to read back through the entire thread, but if your moving to a 24volt setup, the VMP of 35.1 is just fine for a PWM charge controller! So you could put off switching to an MPPT type.

I would certainly look at Midnite Classic before I considered any other MPPT type charge controller. Just can't imagine any better controller currently and once the shunt based battery sensor module gets set up it'll be not worth considering any other MPPT type charge controller, IMO. Might check out Out Northerner thread on production using "Waste Not" feature.

westend

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Skippy,

Calgary dealer:http://solarwholesaler.ca/product-category/solar-panels/

Muskoka

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Sure, he can do whatever he likes. Perhaps I should have said "you'll want" a MPPT controller, as apposed to need. I want the most out of my system though, and in the beginning if I had known what I know now, I would never have bought the 3 PWM controllers I currently have. They would all be MPPT. Every single day (when the batteries need it) in the winter I see 35-37 charge amps from my 27 amp rated array, connected to my MPPT controller. You'll never see that from a PWM controller. I have 48 rated amps of potential current hooked up to my TS60 (PWM), and I don't get 48 amps of charge from the controller. Do yourself a favor and buy MPPT controllers, especially living here in Canada where we have cold temps for 6-7 months of the year. Now, at the current price of panels, and if you have the room for more, it might not make much of a difference having MPPT, but you never know what the future will bring, so why limit yourself?

Photowhit, if you want my PWM controllers, I'll give you a good deal on them.;) I would dump them in a heart beat, nobody will buy them.

Skippy, your in Ontario, check out EDI in Orillia. That price can't be matched, anywhere, $125 for a 265 watt panel.

Here they are....

Attachment not found.Attachment not found.

Glen

Photowhit

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

I actually would be interested, but since your in Canada, the shipping would be as much as the CC. I think I can purchase a new TS-60 for $150 delivered. My preferences lean toward the Xantrex C-60 but I might go to 48V at some point, hopefully 15-20 out when I need to replace my forklift battery. My major use is in the summer and I have some true 24V panels of which I'm going to dedicate some of to heat hot water, at least as a test. Doubt I'll see even 10% difference between a PWM and MPPT modules.

How does the math work out for you? You could have 530watts more panels for the difference in cost?

Muskoka

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

I agree, at todays panel prices the MPPT advantage is kind of moot. But, are low panel prices going to be around forever? I see a huge difference in production from my MPPT vs. PWM controllers. My MPPT setup sometimes sees a 37% increase in production. My PWM controller sees none.

My best price...

Morningstar TS-60 = $250 CDN shipped

Morningstar MPPT 60 = $565 CDN shipped

Difference = $315, got my latest panels for $.47 / watt, could have purchased 670 more watts of panel, no argument there. A few years ago $315 wouldn't buy one 100 watt panel, and that may come again, so every extra amp from the controller counts.

I don't know about other manufacturers, I only use Morningstar controllers, but the PWM versions don't offer some important features that the MPPT units do, mainly Ethernet connection, something I won't do without, from here on. I need to purchase another controller for my new kw of panel, and it will definitely be a Morningstar MPPT controller, not PWM, and definitely not from another manufacturer. It's hard enough getting multiple controllers to work nice together in the same system, let alone ones from different manufacturers. Been there, done that, own the t-shirt.

Glen

Cariboocoot

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

For those tuning in late, often the best per Watt panel price is on GT panels which have 'odd' Vmp and can not be utilized at full output power on a battery system without an MPPT type controller.

Curiously this adds up to the MPPT option sometimes being cheaper than panels with "correct" Vmp and a PWM controller. I've done this comparison three times in the past week under specific circumstances and the GT panels + MPPT came out to be the better bargain each time, never mind any production advantage. (Note: all were new purchase and all were over 400 Watts in array size.)

Photowhit

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Muskoka wrote: »

I don't know about other manufacturers, I only use Morningstar controllers, but the PWM versions don't offer some important features that the MPPT units do, mainly Ethernet connection, something I won't do without, from here on. I need to purchase another controller for my new kw of panel, and it will definitely be a Morningstar MPPT controller, ...

I would at least look at the Midnite Classic, while it won't 'talk' with your Morningstar, it will spy on it and know what it's up to!

When they have the shunt base battery sensor module up and running.(should be this year!) it will measure the charge going into your battery reguardless of loads! so it can compensate what it's adding to the mix dependent on what is going across the shunt (actually into the battery).

Here's a snippit of my post at Midnite forum;

"Since the monitor would be measuring current across the shunt into the battery, I would think it would compensate for other charge controllers as well!

Of course it wouldn't be able to control them, but if they were a minor or even a moderate source of energy, I would think the system would work much better, I would think with the system under load, it would increase the Classic's output to properly charge and likely the other charge controller (unless a smart one) would time out.

With no load, would the monitor be confused, or just reduce the output of the Classic so a proper current is reaching the battery?

Trying to think if a smart charge controller looking for end amps would not just shut down early with the classic contributing... "

Ryan confirmed some of this, this is a long awaited feature, allowing for much better Charg Controlling, and heck that's what a charge controller is ment to do...

For what it's worth The battery module is pretty simple, I think they were looking at a target price of $50-75. The Midnite Classic lite has nearly all the features of the Classic accessable over ethernet...

inetdog

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Cariboocoot wrote: »

... never mind any production advantage.

Was the ratio in price per Watt delivered to the batteries much different from the raw price per Watt of panel?, or would the PWMs be operating in a pretty efficient mode?

Cariboocoot

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Since it was different scenarios, some of each: looking at the straight Watts of the array and at the delivered charging power. You can't get an exact comparison because inevitably the array sizes will differ (due to changes in panel multiples) and actual current from MPPT is a variable (as opposed to fixed maximum Imp with PWM) but you can see that as available options to get the job the GT & MPPT can come out ahead in value, especially on larger systems.

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Muskoka wrote: »

Sure, he can do whatever he likes. Perhaps I should have said "you'll want" a MPPT controller,

Photowhit, if you want my PWM controllers, I'll give you a good deal on them.;) I would dump them in a heart beat, nobody will buy them.

Skippy, your in Ontario, check out EDI in Orillia. That price can't be matched, anywhere, $125 for a 265 watt panel.

Glen

I agree with you on the whole mppt thing, if you can afford it, get it, its worth it. That is why I am trying to get mmpt for the smaller array, and definitely going with mppt for the larger array. So far, I have talked to a guy in London Ontario, who sells 218 watt - Canadian made panels (csa certified) - so they can be hooked to the grid - for 160 $ a panel - or what ? - .73 cents a watt ? . . no delivery costs either - I can go get em ! The good thing with the guy in London, is he also sells the midnight mppt 60 amp charge controller at nearly the same price as AW&S, so I can go pick it up as well . .

That brings me to the bad news. . . the cost of the smaller mppt charge controller is the same no matter where I order it from, AND I was told that if it is made in the u.s.a , there is not duty on it - something about free trade ? Is this true ? I won't have to pay the "front door surprise" on this one ?

westbranch

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Made in USA only kills any DUTY but sadly not HST or other charges the Carrier applies, use USPS for that small MPPT

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

I have been thinking about it lately . .. about trying to use the 4 $ a watt panels I have now . . roughly 1,000 dollars worth to buy them.

I can either not buy the extra panel and 24 V mppt charger. . saving about 500 $ to not use 1,000 $ worth of panels

Or

I can buy the 500 $ or so - of parts - to SAVE the 1,000 dollars that I spent on the panels. . . and have the extra output of the panels too !

Does that make sense ? I am going with the spend it to save it model .. .

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

westbranch wrote: »

Made in USA only kills any DUTY but sadly not HST or other charges the Carrier applies, use USPS for that small MPPT

All I know, is that (when I ordered the battery monitor) the carrier knocked on my door, and said - "hello, that will be an extra 45 dollars please."

Front door SURPRISE !

The samlex inverter is made in the u.s right ?

westbranch

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

which option will give you more usable watts ? I think that is what I would want.

westbranch

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Cotek/Samlex are made in Taiwan IIRC. the bill or invoice should spell out just what you had to pay for.

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Muskoka wrote: »

Skippy, are you anywhere near Orillia, Ontario?. I just bought a kw of panels from EDI in Orillia, they are a electronics re cycler / outlet store.
Glen

I think I have the contact info here for the place. . . they are closed on the weekends, I will call em next week. ..

Skippy

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

westbranch wrote: »

Cotek/Samlex are made in Taiwan IIRC. the bill or invoice should spell out just what you had to pay for.

Nope ! Every time I call and ask for a price quote, the guy at NW&S says - we cannot quote cross boarder charges . . they will tell me what THEY will charge me for the item,and shipping . . but have no say over the border guys. . .

again - "front door surprise ! "

westbranch

Re: Ready ! - Aim ! - ...

Your delivery person should have given you a customer copy of their additional billing, mine (UPS) was for brokerage and HST and broker G/HST. My bill has it under the category of "IMPORT CHARGES" no mention of Shipping costs, $113.37 Cdn