Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Kframe

Ok. I have been looking at solar for a while and am a little turned off by the price of it. Having said that, i want to be fully off grid in the future. I know its cheaper to be on the grid and all that yada yada but its more about being self sufficient then anything else.

Now at my current useage i need a 8kw system to be totaly off grid. I got prices for that nearing $20k. YIKES.

So my plan, is to start by reducing my useage. For starters im buying a newer home that has better insulation then i have currently. Now i know that heat/cooling is the most expensive part, and i have no idea of this is a efficent heating method or not. The home features hot water heat. From what i have been told, it somehow uses the heat from the hot water tank to heat the home. It also features a gas fireplace. I think the heating system may be a problem, becuase if i wanted to upgrade to a tankless water heater(a geospring or other) i would have to replace the entire heating system as well. I have no idea how that would work.

So other ways to reduce my usage, im open for ideas. What about refrigerators and freezers? Do the ultra efficent models just plug into the home, or will i have to rewire the home to make use of ultra efficent appliances? Im not a electrician and fear this may get expensive just to beable to use efficient appliances.

Ok i am replacing all lights with the AL Gore lights, so thats done. So what else can i replace that will drive my needs down? Washers/dryers(which kind)?

I know that reduction is the first step, i just need a good plan for going about it. How much rewiring will my home require?

Thanks all for the help. I dont even want to look at systems till i get my home as efficent as possible.

inetdog

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Kframe wrote: »

Ok. I have been looking at solar for a while and am a little turned off by the price of it. Having said that, i want to be fully off grid in the future. I know its cheaper to be on the grid and all that yada yada but its more about being self sufficient then anything else.

Now at my current useage i need a 8kw system to be totaly off grid. I got prices for that nearing $20k. YIKES.

So my plan, is to start by reducing my useage. For starters im buying a newer home that has better insulation then i have currently. Now i know that heat/cooling is the most expensive part, and i have no idea of this is a efficent heating method or not. The home features hot water heat. From what i have been told, it somehow uses the heat from the hot water tank to heat the home. It also features a gas fireplace. I think the heating system may be a problem, becuase if i wanted to upgrade to a tankless water heater(a geospring or other) i would have to replace the entire heating system as well. I have no idea how that would work.

So other ways to reduce my usage, im open for ideas. What about refrigerators and freezers? Do the ultra efficent models just plug into the home, or will i have to rewire the home to make use of ultra efficent appliances? Im not a electrician and fear this may get expensive just to beable to use efficient appliances.

Ok i am replacing all lights with the AL Gore lights, so thats done. So what else can i replace that will drive my needs down? Washers/dryers(which kind)?

I know that reduction is the first step, i just need a good plan for going about it. How much rewiring will my home require?

Thanks all for the help. I dont even want to look at systems till i get my home as efficent as possible.

1. Hot water heating can be reasonably efficient, but it depends on what the source of the hot water is. Electric resistance heating is the worst. Heat pump and propane usually are in the same ballpark, and piped natural gas is the cheapest. You will not be able to use your on-demand heater for this purpose without a tank, a heat exchanger, and some complicated plumbing and controls.

Washer should be good efficiency score and should have as little complicated electronics as possible, since the circuit boards may be vulnerable to power surges and daily disconnection, and may take a surprising amount of power when "off". Dryer should be gas if possible, since heat pump is not an option. (Coefficient of performance goes way down when you are trying to pump to a high temperature!)

Photowhit

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Kframe wrote: »

Now at my current useage i need a 8kw system to be totaly off grid. I got prices for that nearing $20k. YIKES.

If that's for an 8Wk array, inverter and battery that's really not a bad price at all. if it's enough to supply 8Kwh a day then that's a different horse...

Kframe wrote: »

I dont even want to look at systems till i get my home as efficent as possible.

Smart move. Most things just plug in, expect to have issues/problems with heavy loads, heavy loads are heated and cooled apliances. Central air is out, but perhaps a mini split and a window shaker for sleeping room or rooms. There is more sun in summer so often this is 'doable'. big oven you'll want to go gas. Smaller toaster oven in moderation, microwave is cool.

Well pump is often a heavy use item and you should look into what kind you have if you have or can get that information while it's fresh.

I'm not sure what an 'Al Gore' light is, Compact floresence are about 3-4x as effiecent as the old incandecense, and LED lights are expensive but in continuous use areas worth the difference. I use one on my over night outdoor light.

They make this new solar dryer for clothes that works pretty well, based on an old concept you take a thin rope and draw it tightly across the yard at a 6-7' height and hang your clothes on it... if you have the space you can also hang clothes inside.

Wood or gas for heat, you should figure out how your radiant floor heat(?) works.

Also keep an eye on the federal tax credit, you can get a 30% tax credit for systems installed before the end of 2016, so this might be a goal for your instalation, this might be extended, but who knows...

niel

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

also don't confuse the hot water tanks used for bathing and such as those meant for home heating are boilers that have a pump and recycle the same water.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Interested in the "AL Gore lights".
For 20 some years I used CFL, both inside and out, but over the last year switched everything to LED, instant on full brightness, no warm up like CFL, and great outside in cold winter conditions, instant full brightness no matter how cold, quite unlike CFLs in the same cold temps.

Kframe

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Sorry for the confusion, my dad called CFL's Al Gore lights, in honor of his movie, and it just stuck. Ok I went to home depot and i cant find any LED lights in the alternative lighting section. They have usual CFL and then have some that look like real lights but arnt labeled real well. In what section are led lights in and how much do they usually cost? Id replace all my lights asap with them as i can afford.

My Hot water heat is piped in NG. So basicly im stuck with that, unless a couple grand falls into my lap to change it to a different system. I Wish i could install a wood burning stove, but my new home lacks a fire place and i have no idea if the HOA would allow it in the first place.

ggunn

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Kframe wrote: »

Sorry for the confusion, my dad called CFL's Al Gore lights, in honor of his movie, and it just stuck. Ok I went to home depot and i cant find any LED lights in the alternative lighting section. They have usual CFL and then have some that look like real lights but arnt labeled real well. In what section are led lights in and how much do they usually cost? Id replace all my lights asap with them as i can afford.

I have exactly one LED light in my house so far, and I got it from Home Depot. I have it installed in the ceiling fixture in my garage and it works great. It does have about half a second delay in turning on, which is just about long enough to think it's not working. I don't remember how much it cost, but it was significantly more pricey than the 60W incandescent I replaced with it.

The city recently replaced all the street lights in my neighborhood with LED's.

Desert Rat

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Photowhit wrote:

They make this new solar dryer for clothes that works pretty well, based on an old concept you take a thin rope and draw it tightly across the yard at a 6-7' height and hang your clothes on it...

Good advice there. Electric clothes dryer and conserve don't belong in the same sentence. You are right to make conservation your first step.
Modern refrigerators are freezers are very efficient and can be easily run on solar power. You don't need anything fancy or expensive; just compare numbers and get units that use the least electricity. Every refrigerator and freezer comes with a big yellow tag that gives the annual usage in kilowatt-hours. Through my own testing I've found these numbers to be pretty accurate. The FTC.gov web site has this data for all refrigerators and freezers listed by brand/model. My girlfriend runs an 18 cu. ft. refrigerator/freezer and an 8 cu. ft. chest freezer with a 1040 watt array. That's here in the sunny Southwest; your mileage will vary.

Sounds like your new house has radiant floor heating. That can be a very efficient setup, and one that requires very little electricity if it's a gas boiler/water heater.

Cariboocoot

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Hot water radiant floor heating can be powered by solar directly, at least to some degree. It does not have to be as hot as the old radiator type because of the more efficient layout of the radiating surface.

There's probably something about it on Build It Solar: http://www.builditsolar.com/

Photowhit

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Kframe wrote: »

... i have no idea if the HOA would allow it in the first place.

Accckkk!...

Check your 'agreement' and get any variences before you start, Solar, clothes lines, etc might be nonstarters...

Kframe

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Thanks all for the input. After i convert to LED lighting, im going to invest in new appliances. Here is a question. Should i go Gas or electricity for the stove? Part of me wants to go electric so i can lower the gas usage as well. I would hate to have a low electric bill but a HUGE Gas bill. I was once at a old farm house, and I will not repeat that mistake. At one point during the winter i was having $250 elec and $350 gas bills. So ya I want to shy away from that at all possible.

How efficent are solar hot water heaters? Do they actually work, what about in winter with over cast and cloudy days?? How do you back it up on those days??

Cariboocoot

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Whether you use gas or electric for the stove will depend on a couple of things: the difference in price and the preference of use. Otherwise gas is a far more efficient way to heat anything. Your farmhouse experience was probably gas heat leaking out through a million holes in the walls. It doesn't matter what the source of heat is if it's all going outdoors instead of staying in!

I switch the electric stove out of this place for gas first thing. This is not only because my wife and I both prefer cooking with gas, but it also dropped the electric bill noticeably without a corresponding ($ for $) increase in the gas bill. Heating with wood is what keeps that low; any time the gas furnace kicks on it's money up the chimney.

How efficient is a solar heater? Depends on which design and what location. This house has passive solar heat. When the sun shines at the right angle it works great. Unfortunately it doesn't always shine or at least not at the right angle (they made some mistakes which I intend to fix when I get around to it). We have a very cold climate here and I doubt solar would work 100% of the time no matter how well designed the house. But the further South you go, the better your chances.

Most any solar heating would have some form of back-up, either to directly heat the water in the case of that kind of system or an entirely redundant air furnace or perhaps even localized electric heat (this can actually make sense in some instances even though it's not efficient).

I wish it was as simple as "this is what works best everywhere", but it isn't.

BB.

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Depending on the eventual size of your off grid power system... You could look at getting an induction cook-top/portable hot plate. They are supposed to be much more efficient than pure electric. I used one for making a few dinners--And it did not heat the room up at all, just the pot.

If you have natural gas already--and what is happening with "Fracking" right now--Natural gas will probably stay pretty cheap for the near future. There are folks that are very worried about gas leaks and will never let natural gas into their home (I have a neighbor with electric stove).

You could always plumb for gas and wire for electricity at the stove, hot water heater, and drier--And be ready for any major changes.

In the end, conservation, insulation, etc. is going to help you a lot.

-Bill

inetdog

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Kframe wrote: »

Thanks all for the input. After i convert to LED lighting, im going to invest in new appliances. Here is a question. Should i go Gas or electricity for the stove? Part of me wants to go electric so i can lower the gas usage as well. I would hate to have a low electric bill but a HUGE Gas bill. I was once at a old farm house, and I will not repeat that mistake. At one point during the winter i was having $250 elec and $350 gas bills. So ya I want to shy away from that at all possible.

How efficent are solar hot water heaters? Do they actually work, what about in winter with over cast and cloudy days?? How do you back it up on those days??

OK:

1. If you have piped in natural gas, then it is the absolute cheapest way to do any major heating, whether stove, furnace or water heater. Solar thermal heating will be a viable option for reducing cost of all but cooking. (There is a spirited discussion about the merit and versatility of solar cooking, so I will let you read other threads for that.)
If the alternative heat source to natural gas would be grid-tied solar PV, then electric cooking might be a option for you. but it will depend on how much power you will produce and the cost of utility power.
If your only gas choice is propane, then the comparison is much tighter and you will have to research your area.
For domestic heating and hot water, a heat pump will be comparable to propane and again you need to research your area and make some predictions.

2. Solar hot water heaters work very well. In most cases, and in the winter if you drain your panels down instead of using antifreeze, you will need some kind of supplemental heat, using solar as a pre-heater for the incoming cold water. With enough panels, you will not need to supplement during the rest of the year unless you take really long showers.
The backup is most often an electric heating element, but gas is also possible. Do not plan to use an on-demand hot water heater, since most will behave badly with varying temperatures of pre-heated incoming water. You could possibly use an on-demand heater and circulating pump, but you would be going off the beaten path.

3. Your biggest lesson from the old farmhouse should be the value of good insulation and prevention of air infiltration. Trying to get enough solar PV power to run an electric furnace (other than a heat pump) is usually not cost effective. Especially if you can use natural gas.

Photowhit

Re: Hi, im new and i want to do this right.

Solar thermal, is a special world unto it's self!

My understanding is most solar thermal water heaters use a larger storage so they have an easier time maintaining water at hgih temp, averaging the cloudy days, and using less alternate sources of energy. That said, my mother has a solar thermal water heater in north Florida, and other than Christmas holidays when entertaining her family, rarely if ever uses her electric heating backup (she leaves it turned off most of the time). She has a 40 gallon tank.

Some use a temper tank, that brings water up to room temperature before heating it, either by solar or other means, reducing the btus required.

heat pump water heaters have started appearing, heating water using the condensed thermal properties of the room air, these claim to be 3-4x as effiecent as standard water heaters and are currently a bit expensive ($1000+) some can even be retro fitted to your standard water heater. in addition to heating the water they also cool the air.

My home solar system has greater array than the batteries require, and some have figured out using the excess solar electric energy through the aux channels of the newer charge controllers to run AC or DC water heating elements in their standard water heater as 'oportuinty loads' once their batteries have reach float. I may opt for this route, or install a small 'point of use' (9-12 gallon) tank water heater. but I'm a single guy and have a shower 40 feet from the time clock at work...

Lots to study look into, I'm just bending my mind to it now. The midnite classic charge controllers may be(and certainly will become) the choice for these aux/opportunity loads, IMHO.

I will use induction cook tops, a microwave and a large coutertop 'toaster oven' for most of my cooking. I would have a LP gas stove if I needed a full sized stove, no natural gas here, and you could run it as a closed system from 100lb tanks withthe proper regulator. 100lb tanks should last an awfully long time!

I think my counter top oven would be all 2-3 people would need, I've done a 12" almost 4" deep lasagnia that would feed 5-6(easy) in the oven. But part of that is having a 30%(or so) too large an array for my storage, making it's use easier, more opportunity use and full charging even on somewhat over cast days.