Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...

CBear42
CBear42 Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Hi all,

My installer assured me he was NABCEP certified (required by NY State for participation in their NYSERDA program) - his website and yellow page ads assured me of the same. Turns out - he's not. He took 1500.00 in cash - and has left a mess. I'm in contact with the Attorney General's office for fraud - but - that will take some time to work out.

My question now is this. I have gone back to the original manufacturers of my equipment (Grape Solar 4 250w PV panels, Morningstar MPPT 45 charge controller, Outback 3500w pure-sine inverter and BatteryStuff 4-250Amp 12v batteries. All put together for a 24v system.

We have reconfigured the solar panels and the battery cabling (they were wrong). But, when I explained that my batteries still are not holding any kind of charge (0-35% on the MPPT) and consistently sitting at 50-80% at the inverter - the Grape guy asked about my generator. I explained that my generator feeds directly into the inverter he got very alarmed and told me to "don't turn the generator on" and "keep the generator away from your inverter". He says that running the generator directly into my inverter may have already damaged my batteries - that I need a conversion to 24 volts before it can be used that way. Another expense. I am 1/2 mile from the Canadian border...I can't keep my system up with the ambient sunlight...

Any ideas - I have seen sketches seemingly showing that configuration - but since the revelation of my installer's total incompetence - I don't know who or what to believe in anymore.

Sigh. The grid is starting to look good.

CBear
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...
    CBear42 wrote: »
    Hi all,

    My installer assured me he was NABCEP certified (required by NY State for participation in their NYSERDA program) - his website and yellow page ads assured me of the same. Turns out - he's not. He took 1500.00 in cash - and has left a mess. I'm in contact with the Attorney General's office for fraud - but - that will take some time to work out.

    My question now is this. I have gone back to the original manufacturers of my equipment (Grape Solar 4 250w PV panels, Morningstar MPPT 45 charge controller, Outback 3500w pure-sine inverter and BatteryStuff 4-250Amp 12v batteries. All put together for a 24v system.

    We have reconfigured the solar panels and the battery cabling (they were wrong). But, when I explained that my batteries still are not holding any kind of charge (0-35% on the MPPT) and consistently sitting at 50-80% at the inverter - the Grape guy asked about my generator. I explained that my generator feeds directly into the inverter he got very alarmed and told me to "don't turn the generator on" and "keep the generator away from your inverter". He says that running the generator directly into my inverter may have already damaged my batteries - that I need a conversion to 24 volts before it can be used that way. Another expense. I am 1/2 mile from the Canadian border...I can't keep my system up with the ambient sunlight...

    Any ideas - I have seen sketches seemingly showing that configuration - but since the revelation of my installer's total incompetence - I don't know who or what to believe in anymore.

    Sigh. The grid is starting to look good.

    CBear
    If the grid is available (i.e., lines already run or nearby) and dependable it usually makes more economic sense to connect and go grid tied than to go off grid. That said, for your situation I'd advise you to contact an installer that actually knows what they are doing for assistance. BTW and FWIW, you can go to the NABCEP website and confirm (or not) anyone's claim that they are certified.
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  • Fordguy64
    Fordguy64 Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭
    #3
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...

    Well I'll start by saying sorry to hear that you got screwed and I would like to state that I am in no way an expert at this stuff and I'm currently in the process of setting up my own system. That being said from my understand the outback inverters (fx series anyway) are designed to be connected that way and they will not put the 120v or 240v into your batteries they all have built in battery charges. Now they have charge parameters that you can change to meet your specific battery other then that I don't think your inverter/generator hurt your batteries..

    Again I'm new so I'm sure someone else will chime in
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...

    Do you have a " Mate " controller where you can set the perimeters of the Outback can be set for your system ?? The Defaults already programed into the Outback should be functioning, they may not be what you need for long term. You need to get your system to maximize your solar input and use the Generator to start your charging regiment or to finish it off. Me, If I know I am going to be short, I'd rather Bulk charge with the Generator early in the day and let the Solar finish the charge. Your going to have to learn your system.
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  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...

    just curious what is this NYSERDA program?

    a lot of the advice is from people that are not NABCEP certified. My point being one can be knowledgeable without. NABCEP certification
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...
    rollandelliott wrote: »
    just curious what is this NYSERDA program?

    a lot of the advice is from people that are not NABCEP certified. My point being one can be knowledgeable without. NABCEP certification
    Many rebate/PBI/FIT programs require that the installers of qualifying systems have NABCEP certification; I assume the NYSERDA program is one of them. Of course there are many people who don't have that certification who have great knowledge and experience in solar, but the NABCEP certification is proof of a certain level of expertise. If his incentive program requires it, then he must follow the rules to get his money.
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  • CBear42
    CBear42 Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭
    #7
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...

    No grid available....to run the line through the State Forest along the road where I am...would cost almost $250,000...

    Yes - I am aware of the NABCEP site...now... :-}

    Thanks for your response...

    CBear
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...
    CBear42 wrote: »
    He says that running the generator directly into my inverter may have already damaged my batteries - that I need a conversion to 24 volts before it can be used that way.

    As others have said, the outback is an inverter/charger in one unit. It has an AC out and an AC in connection. As long as the generator is connected to AC In, you can charge the batteries from the generator.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...
    CBear42 wrote: »
    No grid available....to run the line through the State Forest along the road where I am...would cost almost $250,000...

    Yes - I am aware of the NABCEP site...now... :-}

    Thanks for your response...

    CBear
    You are welcome. Good luck with your situation.

    Unfortunately, there is charlatanism in the solar industry - "fake it til you make it" mentality, and worse. As one of my instructors was fond of saying, "Welcome to the frontier." I am sorry that you were victimized by an unscrupulous "installer"; this sort of thing makes it all the harder on those of us who strive to serve and promote the market with integrity.
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  • CBear42
    CBear42 Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭
    #10
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...

    You know, I totally get that certifications CAN be meaningless. The reason I specifically wanted someone certified was because so much of this house (and in the area generally) is "fixed" with bailing wire and gum. This was new equipment in the box. I wanted someone who knew what they were doing since I couldn't easily afford to fix it if it was done poorly. I asked this man specifically - and he assured me he had the proper certs. He lied. The NABCEP cert was particularly important - because that is the skills/training/testing component of competency. That was particularly important to me. I realize it wasn't a guarantee - but I was hoping for a little more level of comfort and assurance with it.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...

    Charging through the inverter is normal and fine, the 'Grape' guy is likely unaware of how this works. As already stated, I'd rather do the bulk of the charging with the genny and the rest through the charge controller. Of corse if the wiring is wrong, you can hurt anything...

    It doesn't appear that you have a battery monitor, if your using the inverter to determine your state of charge, "...at 50-80% at the inverter" it is likely using a battery voltage to tell you the state of charge which isn't very accurate. "(0-35% on the MPPT)" this statement doesn't make much/any sense to me, if you tell us what screen or even take a photo and post this would help us help you.

    It appears you have 2 options, become your own solar installer and figure things out, read through the manuals and ask questions here, and loose out on your rebate? ...or find someone who is certified to come out and run through your system and give you an idea of the costs to fix whats there and sign off on it, I suspect this would be fine as the materials are there and he can just check every connection and cable and sign off for what ever rebate the system qualifies for...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Installer Lied. No Certifications...now I've got a mess...

    sorry for your misfortune, but being you have batteries that will be damaged if not properly maintained i would suggest going through that certified list and then double check them through the bbb. once you find one have them come out to do an estimate to finish what the other guy started. the certified installer would also be witness to some extent of what this other did or did not do. a good installer will be in your corner as a fly by night installer gives the good ones a bad rap.

    we can't see your installation and can go back and forth for some time and we could still overlook something because we aren't there and being human we could've forgotten about something too. you started out seeking a professional and i contend that you still should. the case against that installer may take some time to resolve and you don't have that time to wait with your batteries.
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