New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

wrdaigle
wrdaigle Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
I recently bought a Honda EU2000i and was looking for a stand alone battery charger for it. Based on the following thread, I ended up getting a Meanwell PB-1000-24.

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?10123-Question-about-battery-charger-selection-with-EU2000-generator&highlight=meanwell+eu2000i

The Honda and the charger seem to be a pretty good match, but I can't seem to run any other switching mode power supplies while I'm charging with the Meanwell. If I turn off everything in the house, the charger runs steady at about 31 amps. But if I turn on even one CFL, the current drops and cycles between about 18 and 24A. The charger is a switching mode charger so I assume there is some sort of harmonic distortion when I turn on another switching power supply (Yup, even CFLs have little built in switch power supplies).

Other than cutting power to the house when I run the Honda, is there anything I do to help this problem. I also looked at the Xantrex Truecharge and opted for the Meanwell to save a few bucks. I wonder if I'm likely to have the same problem with the Xantrex. I can also potentially use the charger that is built into my Outback VFX, but...
  • I would like to keep my VFX hooked up to my Kohler so I can take advantage of the autostart capabilities if I'm away for long periods of time, and
  • I don't currently have a controller(mate) for the VFX (long story, but it's no longer working), so I can't easily reprogram it to the Honda.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks! Bill

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    1) Keep the DC wires from the charger to the battery bank very short and heavy, and direct--Don't (for example) run cable from the charge controller, then from the charge controller to your inverter/DC loads ("home run" cables, not daisy chain). You might try putting some 50 VDC (or higher) small RF caps on the charge controller output (or battery bus).

    2) I believe the Meanwell has at least two charging options... One of the options has a lot of pulses to help desulfate/recondition the battery (as I recall). Try turning off the "advance" charging profile.

    I hope you find a fix--This looked like one of the best small charge controllers out there for mating with a 1,600 watt genset.

    -Bill

    PS: DC cables should run parallel to each other (bundle tie the cables together, do not let them loop or the +/- cables take different routes.

    Try not to parallel the AC cables with the DC cables in the same bundle (separate by several inches at least, cross at right angles).
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    Does this issue only occur in BULK mode?
    That is when my charger momentarily sucks up a lot of the output of my Eu3000i gen and makes it burp a bit as it draws more than 10A, unmeasured, when testing the SoC. My old X- TC40 does a similar test, ramps up quickly in bulk mode...

    HTH
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    I've only tested my Meanwell PB-1000-48 a couple of times but have noticed something that may be related.

    When I have tried to charge my battery bank with the Meanwell while I am also getting some solar charge controller output, the output of the Meanwell is limited. I have the Meanwell output connected to the common positive and negative DC busbars in my ePanel with short, direct, 6 AWG wires (max charger output for 48V system is only 17.4 amps).

    A similar issue was described in the original referenced Meanwell thread where OP tried to parallel a second charger and found the charger output dropped. I assume this was the same issue I encountered.

    Not sure if this is related to your problem Bill, but I thought I'd mention it in case it helps solve the mystery.
  • wrdaigle
    wrdaigle Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system
    BB. wrote: »
    PS: DC cables should run parallel to each other (bundle tie the cables together, do not let them loop or the +/- cables take different routes.

    This could definitely be related. My wire runs are short since I mounted the charger right next to the DC load center (~8" from the + bus and 12" from the - bus). I'm using about 2ft of 4AWG cable, so it does "loop" before entered the load center. Also, the + and - cables aren't paired. I can't test the change yet, but I will definietly give it try when I get home from work tonight.
    BB. wrote: »
    Don't (for example) run cable from the charge controller, then from the charge controller to your inverter/DC loads ("home run" cables, not daisy chain).
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above quote. I connected directly to the busses in the DC load center, which are also connected directly to the batteries and inverter. Would I be better off hooking directly to the batteries for some reason?
    BB. wrote: »
    Try turning off the "advance" charging profile.
    I get the same results in every charging mode.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    I hope you find a solution and post it. I'v been trying to find it for years. with many different chargers and Inverter/Charger combinations. You can chase Power Factor Correction all day long, but if you only get 60-70% of the rated output, you don't have much. The best here lately has been the IOTA's, they do not seem to care about the other sources and whatever internal temperature control they have doesn't seem to continually cut their output. The latest I bought was a Magnum Inverter / Charger. It has a 70 amp charger and it's all over the place, it'll go from 68 Amps to 30 Amps, then 53 amps, jumping constantly. Magnum says it's the internal temperature control. To me it's a crock, it's rated at 70 amps, it should to output it on a constant basis.

    Seems like everyone who designs one thinks they have a better mouse trap with more stages and stuff you don't really need most of the time.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    I was suggesting making all of your load/charger connections to the battery, or your load center (with heavy/short cables back to the battery bank).

    If you "daisy chain"--Battery to charge controller to loads--The electrical noise loads can confuse the battery charger. If the loads go all directly the the battery bank/battery bus connection, the battery acts like a giant electrical noise filter and can keep the charge controllers from getting confused (or electrical noise in your audio equipment, etc.).

    It sounds like you are doing everything right... The one test I would try is placing the charge controller directly on the battery bus (which short cable)--See if that makes a change in operation (the "best" you can do).

    Otherwise, I would try contacting Meanwell--I think Stevek talked to them before when he was researching their product.

    It sounds like they are sensitive to electrical noise on the DC bus. A typical "noisy load" (CFL's, AC inverters, etc.) should not confuse the charge controllers. Using capacitors, ferrites on the cables (both +/- of battery cable through the same hole of the ferrite), using a short/heavy ground braid from metal case of battery charger to your safety ground/DC ground connection are all things I have used before to "control" RF noise in computer power systems.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • wrdaigle
    wrdaigle Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    Well, I gave Bill's suggestion a try and hooked the charger directly up the batteries with a short parallel cable run...and the same problem persists. It works great until I turn on a light or plug in a power supply. I did try plugging a CFL directly into the generator while charging and that worked fine -- it's only a problem when the inverter is powering a switch-mode power supply.

    I will call Meanwell on Friday, but I don't have a lot of faith that they are going to have an answer.

    Here are a few potential solutions.
    • Return the meanwell and try another brand of charger (like the Xantrex TrueCharge). I am reluctant to go this route since I think the chances of seeing the same problem are high.
    • Buy a new Mate and cross my fingers that the communication system in the inverter didn't suffer the same fate when my mate got fried. If so, it will need to be sent back to Outback for repair. I talked to Outback and it should be a relatively simple repair, but I don't really want to be without an inverter for a week or so.
    • Hook the Honda directly to my AC system and turn the inverter off when I run the Honda. I'm not 100% sure how to go about this yet, but it is what I'm leaning towards. I would like to have both generators connected (the Honda and my Kohler 12RES), so I can still use the remote start on the Kohler when I'm away. I will need to either hook both gennies into a switch, or manually plug one or the other the other so they aren't both connected at the same time. When the Honda is charging, I will need to turn the inverter off and be careful about overloading the Honda. My only real load concern is associated with startup of the chest freezer/fridge conversion. This method will certainly take the most steps.
      1. Turn off the gen-Inverter circuit
      2. Switch to or plug in the Honda
      3. Start the Honda
      4. Manually switch the house loads to the Generator (bypass mode)
      5. Turn on the Meanwell
      6. run through a charge cycle
      7. reverse the process.
  • wrdaigle
    wrdaigle Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    I just read our host's page on reducing interference: http://www.solar-electric.com/reelin.html

    I am going to get some ferrites on order and give that a try. Should I add them to the charger leads and the inverter leads?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    You will be very lucky if they do work, I am not sure that they can do enough to fix the issues... You can put them on anything that goes to the battery.

    Note that because of the large DC currents involved--The +/- leads should go next to each other so the DC current is canceled out (cable pairs should go though ferrite inductors--not + or - by itself).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • wrdaigle
    wrdaigle Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    Update: Well, I finally got a chance to wire the Honda into my AC system. It runs my house loads and charges my batteries flawlessly! I just turn the inverter off while the Honda is running. I do unplug my chest fridge while I'm running the generator. It's not quite as automatic as the Kohler was, but it beats the heck out burning 2 gallons of propane an hour! When I go away for long periods of time, I will just need to make sure I hook the Kohler up before I go.

    When I have tried to charge my battery bank with the Meanwell while I am also getting some solar charge controller output, the output of the Meanwell is limited. I have the Meanwell output connected to the common positive and negative DC busbars in my ePanel with short, direct, 6 AWG wires (max charger output for 48V system is only 17.4 amps).

    Mtdoc, I haven't noticed any problems with the charger when I'm also getting sun input -- at least not during the bulk charge phase. I get full current from both the solar cc and the meanwell until my batteries get up to 28.8V. I have my solar charge controller absorb setpoint at 29.6V, so once the voltage gets higher than 28.8V the current input from the Meanwell starts to drop off (as it should). I don't really see this as a problem. If I'm getting enough sun to keep the batteries in absorb,then I don't need to be running the generator.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    That is great to hear that the Honda eu2000i(?) is running your home on (I am sure) a whole lot less fuel (guessing at 4-9+ hours per gallon of gasoline vs your previous 2 gallons of propane per hour on the big genset).

    I am a big believer in balancing loads to generation capacity (solar power system, backup power generators, etc.). It can make a real difference in costs.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    Thanks for the update! Yeah the eu2000is are a great match with the Meanwell chargers. And if you ever want to run more of your house loads - like your freezer -while charging, getting an eu2000 companion model to parallel works great.

    For me the issue is that my battery bank in 436 AH at 48V and the Meanwell can only put 17 amps max into that. I was hoping to be able to use it in conjunction with my solar on a not so sunny day to get closer to 10% charge rate.

    I've never really had to use this yet - and have only played around testing it a couple of times. I'm grid tied with battery back up - but with frequent winter grid outages - sometimes extended ones.

    I originally bought the Meanwell before I was set up to plug my generator into the AC input of my inverter. Also I had heard concerns about the lack of PFC on the Outback inverters so it seemed like a good solution. That's less of a concern to me now since like you I can feed my AC input with generator(s) and it turns out the Outbacks power factor is very good when bulk charging. Still nice to have the back up.:cool:

    BTW - checked out your blog - very nice! (see PM)
  • jdzl
    jdzl Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    I'm also using an EU2000i with a Meanwell PB-1000-24 and so far everything seems to be working well! It puts in about 33 amps (per my Victron BMV-600S), and I'm still able to run my loads in the house using the automatic transfer switch in my inverter (so haven't had any issues with loads coming off the battery bank reducing input current)

    Only strange thing I've noticed is that my [charger] actually prefers if I start it in ECO mode, if I start at full throttle it sometimes won't kick on? Even pulling 33 amps, with (somewhat minimal) house loads transferred I'm able to leave it ECO mode and it runs at a very slightly reduced speed and tapers off.

    The CC gets hooked up tomorrow, so will see how everything plays together...
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New battery charger (Meanwell PB-1000-24) not playing well with rest of system

    just back of the hand cals tells me that the charger should draw about 8 amps, so that is about 1/2 of what your Eu200 produces. perhaps in eco it generates a bit more than that and it is happy at that load...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • JLFH
    JLFH Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭
    In your opinion is ok to connect a MeanWell PB-600-48 to a 48v 110 Ah battery bank and at the same time use the ts-mppt-60 to charge the bank?
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm impressed with the Meanwell PB-1000-24 specs.   PF of .95  Eff 85%  For all the goofy reasons why adding other non-linear loads into the system, read the long page here
    http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html#anchorgenerator basics
     it goes into some depth about PF interactions and limits.  There is no known "fix" ,  each one has to be solved on it's own, the easiest way is a larger generator that has more overhead.

    As for running off an eu2000, there are some gizmos on ebay to extend the run time, with a fuel cap and suction hose to an external tank.  I used about 2.5 gallons a night when I was doing planned maintenance.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    JLFH,

    You did not say what type of battery bank... Assuming Deep Cycle Flooded Cell Lead Acid battery bank, you should be careful that if you exceed ~13% or greater charging current (110 AH * 0.13 = 14.3 Amps), watch that the battery bank does not overheat...

    If the battery bank is less than ~80% state of charge, it will take a large amount of charging current without overheating. Perhaps as high as 20-25% rate of charge (for FLA batteries).

    As the battery bank goes over 90% state of charge, even a 5% rate of charge can overheat the battery bank. And as the batteries approach 100% rate of charge, anything over 2% rate of charge can overheat the bank (talking about multiple hours of charging current to heat the bank).

    If you are using the proper charging voltage (around 14.75 volts for FLA batter at ~75F/25C or less), you should not overheat the battery bank. As battery banks get hot, the charging voltage needs to be reduced (-5 mv per degree C per Cell--typical for FLA) or you can have thermal runaway (battery gets hot, battery voltage drops, charge supplies more current, battery gets hotter, repeat).

    For high charging current, a remote battery temperature sensor (connected to the charge controller) is very nice to have.

    As always try to find the mfg's manual and charging instructions. 

    Are you sure you have a 110 AH @ 48 volt battery bank? That is a fairly small battery bank (AH capacity) for a "typical" 48 volt battery bank.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • JLFH
    JLFH Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭

    Are you sure you have a 110 AH @ 48 volt battery bank? That is a fairly small battery bank (AH capacity) for a "typical" 48 volt battery bank.

    -Bill
     The battery bank is AGM VRLA, I use it in a remote location to power some internet wifi radios, it's about 150Wh total.