The 48v turbine has arrived!

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Surfpath
Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
Well the turbine finally arrived. It's surprisingly small for something that could produce 1500w (I plan for 200w now with my current piping, but 500w eventually)
Attachment not found.

I still have to get the prewired power panel (very sure now it's going to be the Outback flexpower 1-6). However I have secured a location for the hydro, 40 feet from the house. I'm thinking about running the cable in conduit just a foot or so under the earth to the power room wall.

Question: What size & kind of cable & accessories do you think I need for this run?

I dont believe I need anything heavy duty (8 or 10 AWG?), but I want to make sure the cable I get can handle the voltage and current for this run.

Also here are the other accessories that the manufacturer recommended.....
  • Xantrex C40 (I got the Morningstar TS-45 from NAWS)
  • Resistor Box or Water Heating Element (I plan to order a resistor box wired to accommodate the hydro & solar max input)
  • Ammeter w/shunt, 25 or 50A
  • 2 Breakers (Outback, Dinrail)
  • Splicer blocks 2/0 (if using heavy or AL wire) - [dont think i'll be needing these]

I guess I should google what the ammeter and breakers are for, and where they get placed (any ideas?).

Are there any other items that you think I will need for the Hydro to dump load controller/battery bank run?

Small aside: If I purchase a larger spool of 8 or 10 awg now, is it likely that this will be handy later on with any other aspect of my off-grid system (like solar panels: 1400 watts 6x235w panels)?

Excited to start the project.
SP

Reference link for previous discussion on complete system:
http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15469-Check-out-proposed-Island-system/page4&highlight=surfpath
Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.

Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!

    At first this post threw me, as I was expecting it to be about a wind turbine, and was wondering what the heck the photo was - - some kind of 3 phase lightening arrestor/rectifier. Then I clued in :D
    Re your 200 watts @ 48 volts, running 40 feet to the house: shouldn't be a big problem. My pico hydro sends 175 watts (after all losses) a distance of roughly 300 feet using #4 aluminum. 600 feet return. 4 amps @ 45 volts, which my TS-MPPT-60 down converts to roughly 13 amps @ 13.5 volts delivered to the batteries. So all things considered, my overall losses (wiring and contoller) are pretty small. I don't think you have much to worry about in that area.
    Best of luck and please let us know how things go.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!

    If you're planning on getting the full 1500 Watts out of that turbine best wire for it now. Even over 40 feet you can get a sizeable Voltage drop on 48 Volts. That would be roughly 32 Amps peak, so it's a question of how much power loss are you willing to accept? Looks to me like 8 AWG would be a good choice for that output. You'd have about 3.5% V-drop. 10 AWG could handle perhaps 20 Amps at that distance. (Not precise calculations: just estimates.)

    10 AWG is the usual wiring for arrays, but again it depends on the actual Voltage, current, and distances involved. Plan it now and see if it isn't a good idea to pick up that bargain wire.

    The Ammeter measures current. Normally its shunt would go on the negative wire from the turbine and read the current being supplied.

    Breakers are to protect circuits from over-current. Where they go and what size they are depends on what's being wired to what. Turbines, whether wind or hydro, need a load available at all times to prevent them spinning out of control.

    If they have a recommended parts list, maybe they have a recommended wiring diagram that explains where they recommend the recommended parts go? I'd recommend you look into it. :D
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!

    Agree with Cariboocoot, if you're planning on going 1500 watts in the future, size the wire for that now and be done with it.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!

    Why not look into a MPPT controller for the turbine ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!
    Agree with Cariboocoot, if you're planning on going 1500 watts in the future, size the wire for that now and be done with it.

    Thanks Wayne and Cariboocoot,
    Unless Mother Nature changes I don't think my stream could ever get me anything over 750w, and that's if I were to dam the whole thing up. I checked with a hydro forum (like Wayne suggested) and they said I'll be lucky to get 120w now and 500w later with some extensive repiping.

    I found this neat AWG table and voltage drop calculator. It said that with a 40 foot/20A/48volt load using 10AWG one would expect a 1.643 voltage drop (3.42%). Change that to 8 AWG and it becomes a 1.03 volt drop (or 2.15%).

    Interesting, I just noticed that the load carrying capacity table recommends the following limits:
    15 Amps for 10 AWG
    24 Amps for 8 AWG

    But then again they admit that the table is conservative: The Maximum Amps for Power Transmission uses the 700 circular mils per amp rule, which is very very conservative.

    So I was thinking of going with 10 AWG:
    I have a partially used spool of Ancor marine cable left over from rewiring my boat. I am pretty sure it is the same thing as this , and in 10AWG.

    Would that type of wire suffice? (Ancor Marine Grade Electrical Primary Tinned Copper Boat Wiring). If so I may be in luck.

    -SP
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Why not look into a MPPT controller for the turbine ?

    Hi,
    Most hydro folks recommended a regular PWM controller for load diversion. Here is one link that explores the topic. I also read about it has something to do with hydro's regular voltage input (as opposed to solar which has higher voltage variance, and thus benefits more from MPPT).

    My proposed Outback power panel has a MPPT battery controller to handle the solar charging. Technically it could handle the hydro as well, but several folks recommended a separate PWM controller as another layer of system safety.
    -SP
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!

    Powerstream's tables are conservative. As a rule, 10 AWG is good for up to 30 Amps and 8 AWG up to 50. But the big concern here is not the current but the Voltage drop, which is another matter.

    That wire you linked to on Amazon showed a picture of something that appeared to be labeled as 18 AWG. But if it actually is 10 AWG it's 10 AWG; pre-tinned or not.
  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!
    That wire you linked to on Amazon showed a picture of something that appeared to be labeled as 18 AWG. But if it actually is 10 AWG it's 10 AWG; pre-tinned or not.

    Yes, the photo is a little confusing. The link shows a range of AWG wires (the only photo says '18 AWG'). I have the 10 AWG version.

    Ancor also has another "range" of wire called Ancor Marine Grade Electrical Tinned Copper Battery Cable.

    My guess is that the latter is the same thing, just thicker.

    Ancor is a well known/trusted name in the marine industry.

    I'm hoping my 10 AWG spool will be OK for the hydro cable run. Here's another look from another page: HERE. It is called "Ancor Marine Grade Electrical Primary Tinned Copper Boat Wiring."
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!
    Surfpath wrote: »
    My proposed Outback power panel has a MPPT battery controller to handle the solar charging. Technically it could handle the hydro as well, but several folks recommended a separate PWM controller as another layer of system safety.
    -SP
    If the voltages of the hydro and the solar are similar, one MPPT controller could well handle them both. In my case, when I did try that, there was quite a voltage spread between the two, and this confused the MX-60, it didn't know which source to lock onto. When it did happen to get a workable lock however, the results were awesome!
    It was that controller confusion problem that drove me to purchase the second controller, and now everything is fine! :D
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!

    The midnight Classic , I think, has MPPT and diversion load.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
    Options
    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!
    If the voltages of the hydro and the solar are similar, one MPPT controller could well handle them both. In my case, when I did try that, there was quite a voltage spread between the two, and this confused the MX-60, it didn't know which source to lock onto. When it did happen to get a workable lock however, the results were awesome!
    It was that controller confusion problem that drove me to purchase the second controller, and now everything is fine! :D

    I obtained the TS-45 as a dump load controller based on forum advice. I can understand the concept of another level of safety (it's mega challenging for me to replace parts and ship new components).

    My proposed system is intended to be 48v throughout. The proposed panels (6 x 235w Koceras-sp) will kick out a much higher Voltage, but the outback controller will sort that out. The bought hydro is 48v, the battery bank is 48v (8 x 6v), and the proposed Outback flexpower 1-6 includes a 48v inverter.

    Another thought.......Is there any way to test out the hydro to see how many watts I have, by using my 10 AWG battery cable and a couple of 300w resistors? Knowing what I could get now from the hydro would help me to confirm the next step regarding my panels (& whether I really have to re-PVC my penstock).

    Then again, perhaps I also need to have a battery bank purchased (with controller attached) in order to do this. Hmm:p.
    Anyway, food for thought.
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: The 48v turbine has arrived!
    Surfpath wrote: »
    ....Is there any way to test out the hydro to see how many watts I have, by using my 10 AWG battery cable and a couple of 300w resistors? Knowing what I could get now from the hydro would help me to confirm the next step regarding my panels (& whether I really have to re-PVC my penstock). .....


    There are several on-line pipe flow caculators, which if followed faithfully, will be very close to the actual flow rate. Now what the turbine will do with the water is a whole different story..
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,