Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

crewzer

Greetings all!

There seem to be many questions and even a few misconceptions about the XW MPPT 80 600 high-voltage solar charge controller. Examples include price, design relationship to grid-tie inverters, array sizing, etc.

Please feel to post your questions here, and I'll try to provide prompt and useful responses.

Regards to all,

Jim Goodnight
Schneider Electric

Cariboocoot

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Jim, if you can improve the quality of customer service at Schneider/Xantrex to that level across the board you may just save the company.

niel

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

well it would seem to me that if you are aware of some questions and misconceptions about it then why don't you address them now rather than wait until somebody says something again?

niel

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Jim, if you can improve the quality of customer service at Schneider/Xantrex to that level across the board you may just save the company.

coot,
the renewable section of schneider will not bring the entire company down if they were to shut the renewable section all down tomorrow. as i see it there is only dealer relations as they don't want relations with customers and jim has little to say about it as he takes orders from his boss. he can correct me here if i'm wrong.

sorry jim, but imo schneider has a big lessen to learn in that no matter how big they are they can't dictate to the renewable industry and will sacrifice that aspect of themselves in the industry if they continue to try.

Cariboocoot

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

My point exactly, Niel; the biggest problem they have is communication with end users (for whatever reason). Jim's offer of direct answers here regarding the 600-80 is the sort of thing they should be doing. The attitude of only working through dealers is not one that will win them friends ... or sales.

Without connection to the end user they also miss out on a lot of important feedback that can make their products better. And there is room for improvement, judging by the comments on this forum.

crewzer

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

OK... Let's take a look at a couple of issues that I've heard "on the street": price and the insides.

I've heard or seen several comments about the SCC's "high price" of $2,000 or more. NAWS price as of May 3, 2012 is $1,247.34. That may appear to be high compared to some of the competition. But, when you consider that 150V - 250V SCC's typically require a PV array combiner box with circuit breakers, and heavy wire to reduce home run power loss, and associated installation labor, then the price comparison looks better.

Note also that a single MPPT 80 600 can handle PV arrays rated in the 6,000 W STC range for a 48 V system and still be code compliant. Pick any other SCC for this application, and you'll need two.

Most installations using the MPPT 80 600 SCC will involve one- or two long strings of PV modules. These configurations do not require combiner boxes or OCPD's. And, the combination of high array voltage and correspondingly low array current means that relatively small gauge wire can be used for the home run.

Regarding the insides, there have been comments that the MPPT 80 600 shares the same insides as the GT inverters that were recalled. This conclusion is not at all correct. I know the product's designers personally, and they started the new SCC design on a blank sheet of paper.

OK.. I've opened the door. Additional product questions are welcome!

Regards,
Jim Goodnight
Schneider Electric

Joe_B

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Wow, brutal. The negative feelings toward Schneider are both palpable and IMO justified. Jim, I appreciate your effort to come on this forum to address the technical questions associated with a specific product however, based on the posts in this thread, there are obviously more issues with the whole XW thing.

I have been in contact with the tech support department at Schneider many times over the years and have to say I am less than impressed with the response. Most recently, I pointed out a major error in the firmware which was confirmed through tech support and it has been months since and no response. I was simply told that it was being worked on and to monitor the website for a firmware fix. This is a prime example of why folks are essentially fed up with the whole process.

If Schneider wants to improve sales for the new charge controller, maybe they should start supporting their existing product line and the issues that already exist with that. I would be reluctant to jump on board to the tune of thousands of dollars after reading the many posts on this forum concerning the faults and failures of the whole support structure.

Joe

Cariboocoot

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Most of the discussion about this controller on this forum has been along the lines of using it in conjunction with a standard GT system to provide battery charging for emergency power when the utility goes down: people want to be able to make use of the big array they sunk all that money in to. Since these array tend to run 250 - 500 Volts, this unit would seem ideal for the application even though it would require some rewiring and probably violate the install certification of the GT system (for being added afterward - most AHJ's probably couldn't comprehend the idea in the first place).

I don't recall anyone considering one of these for a strictly battery-based off-grid system, although a couple of times it has been suggested for rare installs that involve very long wire runs. Most people simply do not need the high Voltage capacity, and the cost of typical junction box & wiring doesn't come close to the higher price of Xantrex's unit.

We always try to quote NAWS price on this and other products mentioned. Even so, $1,200+ is a tad pricey. Considering its limited applications, that is not likely to come down soon.

Vic

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Hi Jim,

Nice to see you back here.

BUT, speaking of the typical cost of the MPPT 80 SCC (is that it ??) -- neat product designation -- In a stand-alone configuration where the customer wants to use this CC with non-XW inverters, a control panel needs to be purchased. OH, and, if there is ever new Firmware that needs to be implanted, seems to me that there is also an additional, extra-cost implanter tool needed. Just how much do these cost? IIRC, the front panel readout of the HV SCC is several LEDs.

I have been very disappointed in the customer "Service" delivered by Schneider. To me, it seems to be in the category of "take it or leave it", but whatever you choose to do, just go away.

If I can continue to avoid Schneider products, given my experience, will do so ... there is so much room for improvement.

Good Luck, Vic

SolaRevolution

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Mr. Crewzer,

First off I'd like to say I love this piece of equipment. It is really best when going into an XW inverter system. If it is going into a system with a different inverter it seems huge and akward and in many situations it can be tough to provide adequate ventilation when placed on the wall with an existing system. I've put them into systems which were previously generator-only because the distance to the viable PV site, which would have previously required "00" or larger wire, could now be done with #6 or even # 10.

I do have some questions I cannot find answers to in the manuals. Mostly regarding positive ground. You asked.
(cracking my knuckles);)


1. Are the PV and the battery sides seperately derived systems?

2. Can the Array be positive ground and the battery be negative ground?

3. Can the XW MPPT-80-600 be used with a positive ground array and feed the same battery bank in parallel with another charge controller (same or other brand) with a negative ground.

4. If used in a positive ground system with the XW6048s will there be any issues with the inverter's or the CC's aux relays?

From the installation manual:
"DC voltage is available between JU-1 (AUX +12 V) and JU-3 (AUX-COM, signal return)."
5. Is JU-3 (AUX-COM, signal return) common to the chassis? Will it be part of the positive ground?

6. How will this be affected in the case of an array ground-fault in the PV negative?

7. If you are AC coupling an XW system with GTs will the Xanbus work if the GT is positive ground while the XW is negative ground or vice-versa?


8. Most important: Why is the tech line hold music a tune called "So what"?:p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzyV8kb2_2Y&feature=related

Alex Aragon

Dave Angelini

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Hey Jim,

Seven of the -80's installed. No problems. They really make life easy offgrid. Awesome product that could be better if there was a larger SCP and 20 lines of code. Remember that e-mail?

--Dave

crewzer

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

All,

Thanks for all of the great questions and comments! Let me first address SolaRevolution's technical questions:

Alex,

1. Are the PV and the battery sides seperately derived systems?

Yes. The PV side and the battery side of the MPPT 80 600 SCC are separated via galvanic isolation.

2. Can the Array be positive ground and the battery be negative ground?

Yes. The array can be positive ground, negative ground, or floating (ungrounded), and, independently, the battery can be positive- or negative ground. Please see Figure 2-9 on page 2-13 in the current Installation Manual.

3. Can the XW MPPT-80-600 be used with a positive ground array and feed the same battery bank in parallel with another charge controller (same or other brand) with a negative ground.

Yes, as long as each SCC is independently connected to its own PV array.

4. If used in a positive ground system with the XW6048s will there be any issues with the inverter's or the CC's aux relays?

The XW inverters are designed for negative battery ground applications only. Perhaps I didn't fully understand your question?

From the installation manual:
"DC voltage is available between JU-1 (AUX +12 V) and JU-3 (AUX-COM, signal return)."
5. Is JU-3 (AUX-COM, signal return) common to the chassis? Will it be part of the positive ground?

6. How will this be affected in the case of an array ground-fault in the PV negative?

I need to research Q's 5 & 6. I'll be on travel for much of next week, so please give me a few days to contact my colleagues in Burnaby,

7. If you are AC coupling an XW system with GTs will the Xanbus work if the GT is positive ground while the XW is negative ground or vice-versa?

We need to discuss this separately...

8. Most important: Why is the tech line hold music a tune called "So what"?:p

Good one!

Regards,
Jim Goodnight
Schneider Electric

mike95490

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

re: customer service. I've called the 800 # on the back of the XW manual several times. If I did not connect with a person at the time, they called back within 24 business hrs.

While updating the firmware in my Gateway, it bricked, and the sent me a warranty replacement. SCP and XW Inverter firmware updates (with my router being powered with it's 12V cig lighter cord) went just fine.

So, the annoying lag between call and response, is annoying, but not a deal breaker.

SolaRevolution

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Jim-

Thanks for all of the good news!

Alex

crewzer

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Alex,

Greetings from Cambridge, ON! I'll be at HQ in Burnaby next week, and then I'll follow up with you.

Regards,
Jim Goodnight
Schneider Electric

topper

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

I would love to see a fully integrated system with a "midnite type" dashboard. Instead of all the extra +$200 +$300 hardware. Plug and play would be so lovely.
I do like the versatility of the entire xw system. If only communications and data logging(intranet/internet) were expanded.
I would love to update my firmware, but cannot without +$200 hardware.

Thanks
Ken

Dave Angelini

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

I have http://www.briery.com/dashboard.html used this system for some of my offgrid clients and it works well but does not allow you to controll the system. You can remote monitor!

65DegN

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Looking at the specs it appears that the 80-600 has a max operating array voltage of 195 VDC. I was initially interested in using one in an off grid system where there would be a long run between the array and the cc. But 195 volts doesn't have any advantage over other cc's. Am I missing something?

Cariboocoot

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Yes: 195 Volts is the minimum.

Page A-2 of the manual:
"PV Array Voltage Operating Range: 195 to 550 VDC"
"PV Array Voltage Full Power Range: 230 to 550 VDC"
"Maximum Power Point Tracking Range: 195 to 510 VDC"

Voc must never exceed 600.

SolaRevolution

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

65DegN wrote: »

But 195 volts doesn't have any advantage over other cc's. Am I missing something?

It is a minimum of 195 volts.

High voltage is a huge advantage. Unfortunately, however, if your array is so small that you don't have enough panels to get a series string over 200 volts then I doubt you would be wanting to spend the $$$ needed to invest in the high voltage CC anyway

boB

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Yes: 195 Volts is the minimum.

Page A-2 of the manual:
"PV Array Voltage Operating Range: 195 to 550 VDC"
"PV Array Voltage Full Power Range: 230 to 550 VDC"
"Maximum Power Point Tracking Range: 195 to 510 VDC"

Voc must never exceed 600.

So, what is the difference between "Maximum Power Point Tracking Range" and "PV Array Voltage Full Power Range" ? ? ?

Or another way to ask this is what does "Full Power Range" mean, exactly ???

boB

mike95490

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

what does "Full Power Range" mean, exactly ?

I believe it means the range the MPPT system is most effective at. Outside that range, either MPPT is disabled, or works at reduced efficiency. I think most MPPT systems have this spec.

65DegN

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

OK, so it's like a string charge controller for off grid. Thats different. That just might do what I am looking to do. I don't see anything on the Schneider site that explains this device except a brief spec sheet with very little info.

offgrid me

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

It allows one to use a single string of panels and run it a long distance with little loss. I run 4200watts of evergreen panels as one series string over 100ft to my cc on #8 wire with .19% wire loss. No other cc would let me do this with such little loss and reasonable wire gauge. No combiner, two connections and only 1 20 amp breaker. For my application it actually was the cost effective choice.
Ned

Dave Angelini

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Dave Sparks wrote: »

OK they announced it! I have wanted this tool in my box for a long time. I really thought with this nasty recession that this project would be canceled.

Love them or not, it is a very nice piece of work. The state of the art commercially for this wide of conversion range. Thanks to all the folks involved in any of the new CC's that are coming out!

The Xantrex high voltage charge controller XW MPPT – 80 - 600

600 vdc 80 amp charge controller for 24VDC and 48VDC nominal battery systems.

24 months and up to 12 years of logs.

Negative, positive, or ungrounded with PV GFCI.

Boost algorithm for battery maintenance.

Can power its own system control panel for those with another brand of inverter.

½ WATT loss at night.

No relay sounds.

Variable speed fan that I never had come on all summer with a 1600-watt array.

Room for 3 strings and fuses but not listed for fuses internally. A lot of room though...

Xanbus enabled. Aux output for alarms etc.

Current limits at 23 amps on solar input. NEC compliance would require #10 AWG with 75C insulation.

MPPT range 195V to 600V with a shut down at 550V for protection. I saw efficiency in the mid 90's with a 24V nominal battery

500 foot + array to house distances with wire gages that are easy to work with & less expensive wire.

Conversion from a battery less inverter without having to go up on the roof to rewire.

Balance of system components and install times are reduced dramatically.

I was told availability in early 2011.

Complies with FCC class B devices.

5 year warranty.

The "fast sweep" is betwwen 40 and 100 miliseconds depending on load. They are saying 65 units in the wherehouse mid February.s might help. You can download the manual at the Schneider site.

vtmaps

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

offgrid me wrote: »

It allows one to use a single string of panels and run it a long distance with little loss. I run 4200watts of evergreen panels as one series string over 100ft to my cc on #8 wire with .19% wire loss.

What sort of efficiency do you get? If it were 95% efficient then 5% of 4200 watts would be converted to heat in the controller. I imagine that the controller gets pretty warm.

--vtMaps

SolaRevolution

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

The SCP (system control panel) shows the MPPT's PV volts and amps in and volts and amps to the battery. I have seen a differences of 7-10% while in bulk.

Alex

offgrid me

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

The controller never really gets hot and I have never had the cooling fan come on. I attribute this to the fact that I have a small battery and large array so I get through bulk very quickly and the cc lives in a nice cool shaded garage. How hot it would get in 100degree weather I have no idea but I guess thats what the cooling fan is for.
Ned

boB

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

mike90045 wrote: »

I believe it means the range the MPPT system is most effective at. Outside that range, either MPPT is disabled, or works at reduced efficiency. I think most MPPT systems have this spec.

You're probably right or at least very close.

I googled mppt and "Full Power Range" and all I could see (in this context) was for this controller and maybe one of their grid tie inverters.

It'd be nice if the term would be defined by the manufacturer. I haven't looked any further than this forum except for googling.

boB

PS. I just ran across a spec sheet from Schneider that says this...

Cos phi: >= 0.99 at rated power (output), >= 0.95 at full power range (output)

So I am guessing that this has something to do with power factor.

crewzer

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Hey guys!

We just completed our family's relocation from Vienna, VA to Mills River, NC, just south of Asheville. Thanks for all of the great questions and comments... I'll get to them all this week.

Regards,
Jim / crewzer

crewzer

Re: Schneider Electric XW MPPT 80 600 SCC Q & A

Ken's Message.

Ken,

Thanks for your comments and suggestions... I'll make sure they get passed on.

In the meantime, you can contact Tech Support and ask about renting the XW Configuration Tool so that you can do your updates.

HTH,
Jim Goodnight
Schneider Electric Solar Business