Something from nothing

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  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    This is some of the stuff that I was referring in the Bedini thread. We are constantly gaining a better understanding of our world and may someday be able to harvest energy out of what we presently see as "thin air".

    If your knee-jerk reaction to "free energy" is that it can't be done, you are seriously limiting the possibilities out of stead-fast ignorance.

    The article talks about how virtual particles are seemingly spontaneously created in a vaccume. It has been found that virtual photons can be converted into real photons. Photovoltaics uses photons to generate electricity.

    From the article: “Relatively little energy is therefore required in order to excite them out of their virtual state. In principle, one could also create other particles from vacuum, such as electrons or protons, but that would require a lot more energy.”

    The key concept is "relatively little energy". Can we use a form of energy which we are not yet harvesting to change the photons from a virtual state to a actual state? We need the right transducer to be able to transfer the energy. It may already exist but we don't yet realize how to put it to work in this way.


    My limited understanding of it is that the universe is constantly expanding. While expanding, the density of all existance is decreasing, in effect, creating more vaccume within relative space. The creation of vaccume can bring virtual photons into existance.

    From the article:
    "However, the main value of the experiment is that it increases our understanding of basic physical concepts, such as vacuum fluctuations – the constant appearance and disappearance of virtual particles in vacuum. It is believed that vacuum fluctuations may have a connection with “dark energy” which drives the accelerated expansion of the universe. The discovery of this acceleration was recognized this year with the awarding of the Nobel Prize in Physics"

    -Alex
  • solarixsolarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    IMHO, what is known as free energy is free for the taking but expensive and impractical to harvest, collect and use. Yes, the world is full of energy - its just that almost all of it is low-grade, diffuse, and inefficient to utilize. All the "over-unity" machines I've heard of are only slightly over unity if anything and can't handle being loaded.
    You just can't compete with the black gold that just flows out of the Saudi ground for under a $1/barrel and it is a crime our era is burning though it like there is no tomorrow.
    While us Americans are searching for a new of high-efficiency technology(Solyndra), or some get rich quick "free energy" boon-doggle, the Chinese are getting good at automated production of standard PV modules and taking over the industry.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,153 admin
    Re: Something from nothing

    It is also difficult to compete when some companies/countries just dump their toxic waste out the back door of the factory "by accident".

    Solyndra never made economic sense (unless solar panels were still >>$6 per watt wholesale). It was corrupt venture between politically connected "investors" and government officials.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: Something from nothing

    Remember the Sherwin Williams Slogan..."Cover the World'...?
    If the earth survives the removal of its bodily fluids I think the Chinese might go down in the surviving Green Revolution history as providing the electricity to survive/thrive, or who ever can compete with them. Some-ones' got to do it.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    solarix wrote: »
    IMHO, what is known as free energy is free for the taking but expensive and impractical to harvest, collect and use. Yes, the world is full of energy - its just that almost all of it is low-grade, diffuse, and inefficient to utilize.

    Another step in right direction?:

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-02-exotic-material-boosts-electromagnetism-safely.html
    "In the magnetic levitation train example, conventional electromagnets could be supplemented by a metamaterial, which would have been designed to produce significantly higher intensities of magnetic fields using the same amount of electricity."

    Photovoltaice started out inefficient to utilize. When we discover a new way to harvest energy it too will certianly become cheaper and more efficient over time. Used Arco 9 watt PV modules sold for $900 in 1978 to off gridders who paid $100 a watt for "Free" solar energy so they were able to charge their batteries without firing up a generator or driving to town. It took 34 years but the cost of "Free" solar energy fell to 1% of the original price.

    Alex
  • nsaspooknsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    This is some of the stuff that I was referring in the Bedini thread. We are constantly gaining a better understanding of our world and may someday be able to harvest energy out of what we presently see as "thin air".

    If your knee-jerk reaction to "free energy" is that it can't be done, you are seriously limiting the possibilities out of stead-fast ignorance.

    The answer is again that there is no free energy. The power to convert quantum vacuum virtual particles to real photons is greater that the energy generated from the conversion.

    No, there can't be free energy. It's just not allowed. At the end of the day, given that the photons are microwave, the energy put into vibrating the mirror accounts probably for the whole energy. Note: there is no such thing as free energy. Ever. Ever. My knee-jerk reaction is you can phone me when the 2nd law of thermodynamics has been overturned as there is nothing in quantum mechanics (the most tested,most successful scientific theory ever) that allows it.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1501838765715417418
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    nsaspook wrote: »
    The answer is again that there is no free energy. The power to convert quantum vacuum virtual particles to real photons is greater that the energy generated from the conversion.

    No, there can't be free energy. It's just not allowed. At the end of the day, given that the photons are microwave, the energy put into vibrating the mirror accounts probably for the whole energy. Note: there is no such thing as free energy. Ever. Ever. My knee-jerk reaction is you can phone me when the 2nd law of thermodynamics has been overturned as there is nothing in quantum mechanics (the most tested,most successful scientific theory ever) that allows it.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1501838765715417418

    Very well said! And in MHO, that should be the end of this discussion because the facts are well known, there is nothing sensible to discuss.
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    I know it's kind of scattered through several posts but I have mentioned that I don't think we will be get something from nothing.

    "Free Energy" (the energy in a pyhsical system that can be converted to do work) is not without cost and it does not come from "thin air". I've always thought of "Free Energy" as output available from a generating source which does not require you to put in fuel.

    With this definition Free Energy includes:
    PV panels.
    Wind Generators.
    Hydro Turbines.
    Sail Boats.

    Of course the right term for those is "Renewable Energy" and they do not break the 2nd law of thermodinanics. Neither does a compass. If anyone, somehow gets a magnetic gizmo to put out more power than they put into it, it will only be because it is tapping into an existing field of energy that right now is either unobserved or un-utilized because we do not yet have a means or the knowledge to make use of it. I do not believe in a prepetual motion machine which is a closed system which can power a load. There is energy in our environment that we can measure and the more efficient our conversion technology is for any type of energy, the more sources of that energy become available for us to harvest at a practical scale.

    If the history of Photo Voltaics may be used as an example, there is a precedent for newly discovered energy harvesting technologies to have a developement period where it starts out as a concept which may sound like voodoo.

    "What do you mean you can get electricity from the sun? Are you going to run a cord? How are you going to get a complete circuit? What the heck is a photon?"
    "What do you mean you can power an entire city with the energy released by splitting the tiniest bit of matter?"
    "What happens when you dunk two pieces of lead with different impurities in acid?"
    "Lets tap that geyeser."

    "Lets harvest energy from measurable dynamic electromagnetic fields." does not sound unreasonably out there in this context.

    No need to break the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

    Alex
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,153 admin
    Re: Something from nothing
    "Free Energy" (the energy in a pyhsical system that can be converted to do work) is not without cost and it does not come from "thin air". I've always thought of "Free Energy" as output available from a generating source which does not require you to put in fuel.
    Pretty much everything has costs. And you are using fuel in a very restrictive sense. Something you get from a gas pump vs the engineering sense as fuel=energy.
    With this definition Free Energy includes:
    PV panels.
    Wind Generators.
    Hydro Turbines.
    Sail Boats.

    None of those are free. And most have very high costs associated with them.

    PV Panels--Huge areas of pollution from their manufacturer (and smelting of the various metals/minerals). Difficult (from what I have read) to recycle (outside of the aluminum frame). 10 years ago the government was attempting to setup recycling that changed something like $2 a watt to recycle. Today, you are buying the panels for less than than $2 per watt.

    Wind generators--In California, we are having lots of issues with 20-30 year old wind turbines that cost more to scrap than they are worth to recycle. And many that appear to be operating are just running in "virtual" mode--spinning (and slicying/dicing birds/bats/etc.) while not generating any energy at all. Also wind turbines cause localized cooling (brining down cooler air closer to the warm ground).

    Hydro--Out west here, "they" are working real hard to pull down the dams and return to wild rivers. Also, turns out that the water from reservoirs releases CO2 and the high velocity mixing by dam spillways causes nitrogen bubbles form in the fish (the bends).

    Sail boats these days are constructed from plastics/oil. And from days past, old growth forests. And I don't think anyone is willing to take 2-6 months to travel from the East to West coasts.
    Of course the right term for those is "Renewable Energy" and they do not break the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

    Of course RE does not break any of the laws of thermal dynamic. If your time frames are long enough, hydrocarbon fuels are renewable resources too.
    Neither does a compass. If anyone, somehow gets a magnetic gizmo to put out more power than they put into it, it will only be because it is tapping into an existing field of energy that right now is either unobserved or un-utilized because we do not yet have a means or the knowledge to make use of it.

    Today, the earth's interior is heating very nicely from gravity and (probably) magnetic fields, as well as by atomic decay. But, in the long term, this is not RE. Even the Earth is slowing its rotation (This would put the Earth's rotation at about 6.5 hours per day/night cycle, when it was created, 4.5 billion years ago).
    I do not believe in a prepetual motion machine which is a closed system which can power a load. There is energy in our environment that we can measure and the more efficient our conversion technology is for any type of energy, the more sources of that energy become available for us to harvest at a practical scale.

    We are choosing to walk away from those sources of energy today (hydro, nuclear, etc.) for various reasons. I am not sure we will find any better ones out there. It is mostly a sliding scale of cost of "fuel" vs cost of alternatives to hydrocarbon fuel.
    If the history of Photo Voltaics may be used as an example, there is a precedent for newly discovered energy harvesting technologies to have a development period where it starts out as a concept which may sound like voodoo.
    Clarke's Three Laws are three "laws" of prediction formulated by the British writer and scientist Arthur C. Clarke. They are:

    1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
    2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
    3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    "What do you mean you can get electricity from the sun? Are you going to run a cord? How are you going to get a complete circuit? What the heck is a photon?"
    "What do you mean you can power an entire city with the energy released by splitting the tiniest bit of matter?"
    "What happens when you dunk two pieces of lead with different impurities in acid?"
    "Lets tap that geyser."

    "Lets harvest energy from measurable dynamic electromagnetic fields." does not sound unreasonably out there in this context.

    No need to break the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

    None of those above are creating energy out of a vacuum. Even geysers in a geothermally active area are not cost free or pollution free.

    Regarding solar--That has been the results of engineering/manufacturing efforts using economies of scale and manufacturing. The basic principles has not since first observed in 1887. (yes, there was scientific discoveries in there too).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nsaspooknsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    I've always thought of "Free Energy" as output available from a generating source which does not require you to put in fuel.

    With this definition Free Energy includes:
    PV panels.
    Wind Generators.
    Hydro Turbines.
    Sail Boats.

    All of these devices depend on the same source of energy, a star very close to our planet. Words have proper meaning and using the thermodynamics "Free Energy" term in the current context is wrong and misleading.
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    nsaspook wrote: »
    All of these devices depend on the same source of energy, a star very close to our planet. Words have proper meaning and using the thermodynamics "Free Energy" term in the current context is wrong and misleading.

    True.

    But that's the crux of the matter isn't it. Semantics.
    "Free energy"
    "Clean coal"
    "Carbon Neutral Nuclear"
    "Non-poluting hydropower"

    I suppose that if we do someday set up huge "magnetic pulse generator arrays" we may cause a faster change in global magnetic pole shift.

    We're doomed. So, there is no free lunch. Gotta "eat" somewhere.

    The most cost effective green technology is the "Nega-watt". The un-used Watt. (I'm not sure who coined the term but I heard it from Jeff Oldham)
  • jagecjagec Solar Expert Posts: 157 ✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    BB. wrote: »
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

    Don't forget the engineer's corollary, "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced", and the tech support corollary "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who do not understand it."
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    Unity * efficiency from LEDs?

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-efficiency.html

    "In their experiments, the researchers reduced the LED’s input power to just 30 picowatts and measured an output of 69 picowatts of light - an efficiency of 230%."

    And yes. It does cool the room:;)

    "This light-emitting process cools the LED slightly, making it operate similar to a thermoelectric cooler. Although the cooling is insufficient to provide practical cooling at room temperature, it could potentially be used for designing lights that don’t generate heat. When used as a heat pump, the device might be useful for solid-state cooling applications or even power generation."

    *Yes I know. It's not true unity.
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    Again, not unity, but another step in the right direction:
    http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-graphene-battery-power.html

    From the article:

    "If Xu’s “graphene battery” is harnessing the thermal energy of motion of the ions to generate electricity, this source of energy is essentially unlimited. The researchers say their experimental results provide a “huge breakthrough” in the research into self-powered technology."
  • nsaspooknsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    “huge breakthrough”
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    BB. wrote: »
    It is also difficult to compete when some companies/countries just dump their toxic waste out the back door of the factory "by accident".

    Solyndra never made economic sense (unless solar panels were still >>$6 per watt wholesale). It was corrupt venture between politically connected "investors" and government officials.

    -Bill
    Now, now, Bill. No politics. :D
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    If your knee-jerk reaction to "free energy" is that it can't be done, you are seriously limiting the possibilities out of stead-fast ignorance.
    When I am elected, I will repeal those overregulatory Laws of Thermodynamics which are stifling the job creators and entrepreneurs and preventing them from solving our energy problems. I will also pass legislation to redefine pi to be 3.000 so that math for our kids will be easier and they can get a leg up on the Asian kids.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    ggunn wrote: »
    When I am elected, I will repeal those pesky Laws of Thermodynamics which are stifling the job creators and entrepreneurs and preventing them from solving our energy problems. I will also pass legislation to redefine pi to be 3.000 so that math for our kids will be easier.

    Haha Ya got my vote ggun! Can't wait for those stupid old laws to be discarded, it's time for CHANGE! :)
    And while you're at it, do something about gravity. Please. My Dr is after me about what she thinks is a weight problem!
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    Haha Ya got my vote ggun! Can't wait for those stupid old laws to be discarded, it's time for CHANGE! :)
    And while you're at it, do something about gravity. Please. My Dr is after me about what she thinks is a weight problem!
    Your doctor is misinformed. What you have is a mass problem, not a weight problem. Repealing gravity won't help you. :D
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    nsaspook wrote: »
    “huge breakthrough”

    Actually, that's not a bad illustration of how that "110% efficient" LED works. The LED makes up the difference in the energy it needs to work by absorbing heat from its surroundings just like the drinking bird does.
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    High gain fusion resurected.

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-nuclear-fusion-simulation-high-gain-energy.html

    More "pathological science" or new discovery made possible by a better understanding of magnetic fields and more advanced computer modeling? I suppose we'll have to wait until results are back from the lab. "...a laboratory result is expected by late 2013, said Sandia engineer Dean Rovang."

    From the article:
    "The simulations show the release of output energy that was, remarkably, many times greater than the energy fed into the container’s liner. The method appears to be 50 times more efficient than using X-rays — a previous favorite at Sandia — to drive implosions of targeted materials to create fusion conditions."

    “People didn’t think there was a high-gain option for magnetized inertial fusion (MIF) but these numerical simulations show there is,” said Sandia researcher Steve Slutz, the paper’s lead author. “Now we have to see if nature will let us do it. In principle, we don’t know why we can’t.”
    High-gain fusion means getting substantially more energy out of a material than is put into it. "
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    ggunn wrote: »
    Your doctor is misinformed. What you have is a mass problem, not a weight problem. Repealing gravity won't help you. :D

    But my Dr "weighed" me, he didn't "Mass" me. ;)
  • nsaspooknsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    ggunn wrote: »
    Actually, that's not a bad illustration of how that "110% efficient" LED works. The LED makes up the difference in the energy it needs to work by absorbing heat from its surroundings just like the drinking bird does.

    That is exactly why I posted it. The extraction of tiny amounts of energy from small temperature differentials is nothing exotic and new. The basic physics are the same, just different materials and types of energy produced.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_bird
    An analysis showed that the evaporative heat flux driving a small bird was about 1⁄2 W, whereas the mechanical power expressed in bird's motion was about 1⁄20,000 W. The system efficiency is about 0.01%. More practically, about 1⁄1,000,000 W can be extracted from the bird, either with a coil/magnet or a ratchet used to winch paperclips.
    ...
    The drinking bird was invented by Miles V. Sullivan and co-developed by George H. Shackley in 1945 and patented in 1946. He was a Ph.D. inventor-scientist at Bell Labs in Murray Hill, NJ, USA. U.S. Patent 2,402,463. The patent was titled "Activated Amusement Device." [4]
  • nsaspooknsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    High gain fusion resurected.

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-nuclear-fusion-simulation-high-gain-energy.html

    “People didn’t think there was a high-gain option for magnetized inertial fusion (MIF) but these numerical simulations show there is,” said Sandia researcher Steve Slutz, the paper’s lead author. “Now we have to see if nature will let us do it. In principle, we don’t know why we can’t.”
    High-gain fusion means getting substantially more energy out of a material than is put into it. "

    Hot fusion, good physics stuff that works. I hope they get the Z machine working with sustained fusion. http://fire.pppl.gov/fpa05_olson.pdf
    http://www.sandia.gov/z-machine/
    zaccel-rennovate.jpg
  • Ralph DayRalph Day Solar Expert Posts: 927 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    Looks like the biggest hot tub ever! ;)
  • nsaspooknsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    It's really hot when they fire it up.
    http://www.sandia.gov/z-machine/wp-content/gallery/nexgen-gallery/arcs-and-sparks.jpg
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    Here's another discovery making magnetic fields more useful than ever:

    "Magnetic cloak: Physicists create device invisible to magnetic fields"
    http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-magnetic-cloak-physicists-device-invisible.html

    From the article:
    "The cylinder was completely invisible to magnetic fields, made invisible whatever content was found in its interior and fully isolated it from external fields."
    "Magnetic fields are fundamental for the production of electric energy - 99% of energy consumed is generated thanks to the magnetic camps within the turbines found in power stations - and for the design of engines for all types of mechanic devices, for new advances made in computer and mobile phone memory devices, etc. For this reason controlling this field represents an important achievement in technological development."



    btw, nsaspook, thanks for the Z posts. Incredible!
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing
    nsaspook wrote: »

    Yea. That is the same device. The article I posted talks about a new, more effective (more efficient and cheaper maybe?) way of making the device and it credits a lot of the same names.
    (I can hear the Bedini crowd drooling!)
    ;)
  • nsaspooknsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    Re: Something from nothing

    The countermeasure for this type of device is easy as it only cloaks static magnetic fields on a stationary object. Movement of the object or varying the magnetic field would create a detectable E-field from the object. With a very fast focused magnetic field pulse you could even measure the field deflection delay across it and determine the size of the device.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TMS_Butterfly_Coil_magnetic_field_.png

    The Bedini crowd are always drooling! ;)
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