How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

vtmaps

Hi everyone,

I have followed with great interest the discussion on gas cookstoves without a glowbar. I wish my problems were so simple. Vermont has a residential energy code that forbids unvented gas appliances. If the venting is by conventional chimney flue, there are additional requirements to make certain the house cannot be at negative pressure. I spoke with the Vt Energy Code Assistance Center who told me that as a practical matter, gas appliances must be direct vent and cookstoves must be electric. They didn't have any cookstove suggestions for an off-grid house where electric cooking is not a practical option.

Thus I turn to this forum. How do I meet code? Are there any electric stoves that are efficient enough to be practical off-grid? I have not yet researched electric stoves. I presume that the oven would have to be well insulated. Is anyone using an induction stovetop? Are they efficient?

Does anyone know of a VENTED gas cookstove (hopefully without a glowbar)? This is something that I have researched, and I found that there is a propane cookstove on the market which is direct vented and uses no glowbar. The Aga Cooker is the most efficient gas cookstove manufactured, and for that reason it is popular with bakers and caterers. The ovens and the stovetop are insulated. Unfortunately, it is on all the time (it takes about 8 hours to heat up or cool down its huge thermal mass) and it uses about 2 gallons/day of propane. That is very little propane considering that the hot oven (475 deg F) and stovetop are on 24 hrs/day. On the other hand, it is a lot of propane for someone like me who only spends a couple of hours a day cooking. Also, the stove is very expensive.

By the way, there is no immediate penalty for ignoring the code. However, if/when the house is sold, the new owners have up to 5 years to discover that the house does not meet code and sue us (wife & I). Probably our best solution is to ignore the code and try to stay in the house until we die.

If we go that route (ignore code with unvented gas stove) in our very tight house, how bad is it to release all of the exhaust and humidity into the house? How much of the exhaust can we get rid of with a range hood and exhaust fan, and what is the cost (in lost heat and electric consumption) of such an exhaust system?

Thanks, in advance, for your advice, wit and wisdom,
--vtMaps

niel

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

i'm no expert on stoves and i'd have to say a propane stove would give off some dangerous gasses, but no more so than my natural gas stove that is allowed to be unvented. it seems to me that forcing somebody to cook with electricity may be unconstitutional and they are making an assumption here that everybody in your state is on the grid. that assumption is what would force those that are not on the grid to get hooked up for this compliance. is the state willing to pay for the large costs of putting in poles and wiring all of the way to the place to come into compliance with cooking with electric only? heck, by technicality, if you have a solar cooker, that might be in violation too as they are specifying the only way to cook is with electricity.

mike95490

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Look for an "INDUCTION" type cooktop. They use a magnetic field to heat a steel/iron pan, and very little energy is lost to non-cooking use. but still up to a 1,000 watt (adjustable) load

And for baking needs, look to a wood stove called Vermont Bun Baker. Several vendors carry them.

Do any stores carry gas/propane stoves ?

What about removing the stove when you prepare to sell. Let the new owner decide what to do, you just leave them a 30" slot for it.

Do you have the stove wireing in place ?

Volvo Farmer

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

vtmaps wrote: »

By the way, there is no immediate penalty for ignoring the code. However, if/when the house is sold, the new owners have up to 5 years to discover that the house does not meet code and sue us (wife & I). Probably our best solution is to ignore the code and try to stay in the house until we die.
--vtMaps

Wow, so if you put in an exhaust fan, that would be creating a negative pressure in the house and would also violate code?

Just an idea here. If you ever have to move, take the cookstove with you. Then the new owners can do as they please with their new cookstove, and you will not be subject to a lawsuit.

niel

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Volvo Farmer wrote: »

Wow, so if you put in an exhaust fan, that would be creating a negative pressure in the house and would also violate code?

Just an idea here. If you ever have to move, take the cookstove with you. Then the new owners can do as they please with their new cookstove, and you will not be subject to a lawsuit.

now that's a good idea. or you can sell the stove off before you would sell the place as taking it with you may not be applicable or convenient to get it to the new place.

sawmill

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

I believe Vermont changed their residential code in 2005 concerning "tight" houses. This change required outside air to be brought in with the CFM determined by the # of bedrooms. This gave new meaning to energy requirements for Winter heating.

In other words if you have an efficient well insulated home you must bring in cold air to increase your heat requirements rather than decrease your heating expense. Wonder which lobbyist got this through?

I find it hard to believe that a seller could be held responsible 5 years after the sale. This is what a property owner disclosure statement and the home inspection by the buyer is for.

We use a gas cookstove and welcome the addional heat and humidity during the Winter when needed. Exhaust fan takes care during Summer months.

I think Mike has the correct solution to your problem.

ggunn

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Let me get this straight. Gas stoves are illegal in Vermont?

Cariboocoot

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Have they any proof of the danger of gas stoves?

If it were true, I would have been dead for over 50 years.

Aga Cookers, btw, are great. It's the top brand in England. Didn't know you could get them over here.
Well you probably can't get them in Canada.

vtmaps

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

ggunn wrote: »

Let me get this straight. Gas stoves are illegal in Vermont?

Niel wrote:

heck, by technicality, if you have a solar cooker, that might be in violation too as they are specifying the only way to cook is with electricity.

Gas stoves are not illegal. They do not specify the only way to cook is with electricity. They specify that gas appliances must be vented. When I asked about it, the person I spoke with couldn't think of any way to cook other than electric. As Niel points out, Solar cooker is an option. As I pointed out, there is at least one way (the Aga Cooker) to legally burn propane in a cookstove.

Volvo Farmer wrote:

Wow, so if you put in an exhaust fan, that would be creating a negative pressure in the house and would also violate code?

What is required is that there be a second fan with equal capacity bringing outside air in.

sawmill wrote:

In other words if you have an efficient well insulated home you must bring in cold air to increase your heat requirements rather than decrease your heating expense.

Many people use a heat-recovery (aka air exchanger) ventilation system. The hot humid air that is being exhausted gives up its heat to the cold air being drawn in. That can be a bit of a problem in the winter when the humid air condenses and freezes on its way out. Especially so in bathrooms and kitchens.

--vtmaps

techntrek

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

I agree with using an inductive cooktop if you must go electric. Just understand that not all cookware will work with it, obviously (like aluminum). It works best with the more expensive stuff that has a thick, heavy bottom.

sawmill - you would use a heat exchange air circulation system, which retains about 75% of the heat that would be lost by blowing in cold air. When I remodeled the outside of my house 3 years ago I had to install one, made it so air tight I was getting headaches over the winter. http://residential.fantech.net/residential-products/indoor-air-quality/hrvs-heat-recovery-ventilators/

vtmaps

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

mike90045 wrote: »

Look for an "INDUCTION" type cooktop. They use a magnetic field to heat a steel/iron pan, and very little energy is lost to non-cooking use. but still up to a 1,000 watt (adjustable) load

And for baking needs, look to a wood stove called Vermont Bun Baker. Several vendors carry them.

I did ask about induction cooktops in my original post, but I haven't researched them yet... I just assumed that they are impractical. I might be wrong. Thanks for the info. Anyone out there using one off-grid?

One thing that I didn't bring up is cooking with wood. There are many excellent wood cookstoves available, including the Vt bun baker, and I do have a wood cookstove. I couldn't bear to use it in the summer. It also overheats the house in spring and fall when it is cranked up hot enough to use its oven. Woodstoves are legal, but there must be makeup air provided for combustion.

--vtmaps

niel

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

i don't see the woodstove to be a problem in overheating the place as you could just crack open a window. you would lose a bit of humidity, but just keep a teapot or something like it putting humidity back into the air.

i never had experience with the induction cooktops, but i have heard they do well. i use nat gas so i would never consider using electric to cook with, induction or not.

icarus

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

I suggest that you actually read the code, chapter and verse. I am guessing that your local informant is not very educated as to the nuance of the energy code.

Clearly, in tight houses, the issue is combustion gases and O2 depletion, both issues are solved by proper venting. Normally a gas stove is vented with a hood ventto remove combustion gas, as well as moisture and odor from the area. Make up air is generally provided by the room and natural leakage.

Quite simply a negative pressure vent can be installed behind the stove such that in the event that the house is so tight, make up air can be down in. I suspect that any good appliance installer has run into this issue before, and found a solution.

The basic venting issues are the same with both LP and Nat gas. LP does however have one additional issue that may need to be addressed. Because LP is heavier than air, and it will liquify in quantity, in the event of a leak, positive drains should be provided to allow liquid propane to drain out of the building.

On a side note, I just did a job in Vermont, including installing a new gas stove. There was no previous vented hood (only a record hood!) and there was no provision to drain lp from the basement boiler and gas piping, so clearly the local inspection agency does not take the I sue seriously.

Like I said, I would read the code, understands hat it means, and work with a knowledgeable inspector. Even if your local inspector doesn't have a clue, find one in some neighboring jurisdictio that does. This is not a big issue IMHO, and one that can be easily solved.

Tony

vtmaps

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Aga Cookers, btw, are great. It's the top brand in England. Didn't know you could get them over here.
Well you probably can't get them in Canada.

Actually, you can get them in Canada. In Europe and Canada the Aga is available with a water jacket so that you can make domestic hot water with it. In the US they are not available with the water jacket. By the way, Aga makes conventional unvented gas cookstoves as well as the vented Aga Cooker. There are a number of Aga dealers that do NOT sell the vented cooker. It takes a bit of looking to find the Cooker.
--vtMaps

BB.

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

I am not sure, but I believe HEAVY aluminum pots (we have ones with stainless liner inside) will not work on induction cook tops. Too low of resistance to heat with (standard?) induction.

I have seen thinner pots and pans that are magnetic stainless + aluminum sandwiched inside for use with induction.

-Bill

vtmaps

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

icarus wrote: »

I suggest that you actually read the code, chapter and verse.

Like I said, I would read the code, understands hat it means, and work with a knowledgeable inspector. Even if your local inspector doesn't have a clue, find one in some neighboring jurisdictio that does.

Tony

I have a copy and have read it... but that doesn't mean I understand it ;-) It is easy to find online... search for "Vt residential energy code". If you do read it, and if you think I misunderstand it, please educate me. As for the inspector, there is none in my rural community. The only inspection required (by the state, not by local jurisdiction) is for the septic system

icarus wrote:

On a side note, I just did a job in Vermont, including installing a new gas stove. There was no previous vented hood (only a record hood!) and there was no provision to drain lp from the basement boiler and gas piping, so clearly the local inspection agency does not take the I sue seriously.

The code is for new construction (assumed to be very tight) or for renovations which make a house very tight. It makes sense... very tight construction can cause bad indoor air pollution and problems with mold from high humidity.
--vtMaps

Cariboocoot

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

vtmaps wrote: »

The code is for new construction (assumed to be very tight) or for renovations which make a house very tight. It makes sense... very tight construction can cause bad indoor air pollution and problems with mold from high humidity.
--vtMaps

In which case there should be a whole-house ventilation system which would alleviate the problem - including any caused by the use of a gas stove.

Good to know about the Aga's. Maybe one day British Columbia will be included as part of Canada like Ontario & Quebec. (Canadian joke; I don't expect anyone else to understand it.)

vtmaps

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Cariboocoot wrote: »

In which case there should be a whole-house ventilation system which would alleviate the problem - including any caused by the use of a gas stove.

Yes, a whole-house ventilation system is required, but that does not mean unvented gas appliances are permitted.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Good to know about the Aga's. Maybe one day British Columbia will be included as part of Canada like Ontario & Quebec. (Canadian joke; I don't expect anyone else to understand it.)

Would you like to be part of Vermont?
--vtMaps

Cariboocoot

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

vtmaps wrote: »

Yes, a whole-house ventilation system is required, but that does not mean unvented gas appliances are permitted.

I suspect this is aimed at furnaces, space heaters, and hot water heaters, as that is a requirement everywhere. Never heard of any jurisdiction trying to apply it to cooking stoves before, but there's always a first time, eh?

Would you like to be part of Vermont?
--vtMaps

You mean we're not?
I actually have a nephew who lives there. Never could figure out why. Something to do with some girl, no doubt.

icarus

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Agas are great if you live Ina cool, dank climate like the UK. They are "on" all the time, and provide considerable space heat,, which is great in the dank, chilly UK year round, but in any climate that gets warm seasonaly, they don't make m uch sense,, IMHO.

I will try to read the code, and profer my opinion.

Tony

icarus

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

I can't seem to find the complete text, but rather the guide book. In chapter 2.2 they talk about combustion venting, and combustion air. All the discussion revolves around fuel burning appliances that are chimney connected. They note that driers need to be vented to outside, and that fuel burning appliances at are chimney connected need make up air per manufacturers specs, and you cannot draw that air on basements or attics. Note that few if any gas stoves are chimney connected!

There is no specific mention of gas stoves. I personally think that your inspector, or building official doesn't know what he is talking about. Since there is no enforcement, and no penalty, I would install as per specs and be done with it. Provide good indoor air regardless, vent the range with a proper range hood, and provide make up air somewhere in the house. I would also call back the help line, and ask for someone with some more practical experience with gas stove installs. I would also call a good appliance dealer that does permitted installs (like the propane company) and see what they say.

Also install a CO detector in the kitchen. I wouldn't personally worry about low O2 unless the house is very tight,,, and then in that case, you are going to have trouble sustaining a proper flame.

Tony

vtmaps

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Cariboocoot wrote:

I suspect this is aimed at furnaces, space heaters, and hot water heaters, as that is a requirement everywhere. Never heard of any jurisdiction trying to apply it to cooking stoves before, but there's always a first time, eh?

icarus wrote:

There is no specific mention of gas stoves. I personally think that your inspector, or building official doesn't know what he is talking about.
<snip>
I would also call back the help line, and ask for someone with some more practical experience with gas stove installs.

You're right! I phoned the Energy Code Assistance Center (again) and had my call escalated two levels up. They just called me back and said unvented cookstoves are permitted. It is difficult for me to understand (among many other things) how an unvented cookstove burning 50,000 btu of propane is permitted, but a 10,000 btu unvented space heater is prohibited.

thanks for giving me the impetus to escalate my call and get this figured out.
--vtMaps

icarus

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

The reason is simple,, an unvented cook stove does not burn 24/7 and is unlikely to be installed in a sleeping room. An unvented heater could do both. For example, ven a 30 k BTU oven will cycle on and (nearly) off. So while roasting a Turkey for 6 hours, it might only burn ~ 1/2 the time.

One of the bigger issues with the burning of gas is the creation of water vapor,, not so much a problem in the stove if you have and use a range hood, but a real problem with an unvented space heater.

Glad you got it solved.

Tony

mike95490

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Great news.

I was going to suggest call a propane delivery company, and ask how they work out gas ranges.

vtmaps

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

vtMaps wrote:

It is difficult for me to understand (among many other things) how an unvented cookstove burning 50,000 btu of propane is permitted, but a 10,000 btu unvented space heater is prohibited.

icarus wrote: »

The reason is simple,, an unvented cook stove does not burn 24/7 and is unlikely to be installed in a sleeping room.

It all seems so simple now. Perhaps after I convert my generator to propane I will install it indoors (but not in the bedroom) so as to avoid the need for a battery or engine block heater ;-)
--vtMaps

niel

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

vtmaps wrote: »

It all seems so simple now. Perhaps after I convert my generator to propane I will install it indoors (but not in the bedroom) so as to avoid the need for a battery or engine block heater ;-)
--vtMaps

i don't think they'll allow the generator as that can run 24/7 too even if not in a bedroom and that would build up exhaust gasses to a possible toxic level.

solarvic

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Mike, Most gas stoves can be use either NG or PROPANE. My manufactured home was set up for Propane. When I got my gaswell all I had to do was change the orifices to NG and adjust the air to the oven burner. NG takes bigger orifices than propane. Also I have an unvented space heater and an unvebted fireplace that I am heating with. They don,t need electric and I hardly ever run the furnace as it has the glow bar and uses lots of electric. I don,t have any high humidity problems or carbon dioxide problems either. I have a carbon dioxide alarm that is intergrated with the fire alarm. It never went off except for the fire part when I was cooking. Mine yells FIRE FIRE FIRE THEN BEEPS. I feel that the unvented heaters are very safe. One guy that sells fireplaces wouldn,t sell me a fireplace because I have a gas well. He wanted too much money anyways. :Dsolarvic:D

icarus

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

In addition to different orriface sizes, Natural gas and propane require different pressures.

Natural gas runs ~3.5-5" water column,, propane 11-13" Wc.

Personally, I. Would not use unvented appliances on a regular basis.

Icarus

vtmaps

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

vtMaps wrote:

It all seems so simple now. Perhaps after I convert my generator to propane I will install it indoors (but not in the bedroom) so as to avoid the need for a battery or engine block heater ;-)

niel wrote: »

i don't think they'll allow the generator as that can run 24/7 too even if not in a bedroom and that would build up exhaust gasses to a possible toxic level.

Niel, this symbol:
;-)
at the end of my post means I was joking. Perhaps one should never joke about burning fossil fuels indoors. On the other hand, as I now read the code, a generator is not explicitly prohibited indoors. Sure, a generator could run 24/7, but so could an unvented cookstove. The code seems to be based on normal usage patterns... it is not usual to run an unvented generator or an unvented cookstove 24/7.
--vtMaps

vtmaps

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

solarvic wrote: »

My manufactured home... <snip> ...I have an unvented space heater and an unvebted fireplace that I am heating with

Personally, I wouldn't do that. Manufactured homes tend to be quite tight. Being off-grid, an electric cookstove is not practical for me. I started this thread because I (mistakenly) thought that the VT energy code required a propane cookstove to be vented. It turns out that I can install an unvented cookstove, but if it was possible I would much rather have a vented cookstove. With the oven and a couple of stovetop burners lit, I could be burning 50,000 btu of propane. That is a lot of exhaust and humidity in a small tight house.
--vtMaps

Ralph Day

Re: How to meet Vermont code? (requires propane cookstove to be vented)

Hence the range hood. I have almost always cooked with LP, when the outside temps are below -15C and the hood is venting outside you can see the water vapour condense (just like your breath does). Then you know it's cold out. Any time the stovetop or oven are on the range hood is exhausting out of doors.

I have a tight house, heat with wood, have gas for cooking and hot water. To provide fresh air sources for all of the above I have a 3" dryer vent without hood always letting air in the basement, and sometimes (like when wet laundry is drying in the basement) I open a basement window a couple of inches. Tight houses need air exchanges. If you keep it too tight then you have condensation in the windows, mould, respiratory problems...fresh air, once warmed up, is a good thing to have.

Ralph