So much to think about here.

jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
In the past I had gotten a couple local quotes on a few grid-tie systems and the break even times were measured in decades and that just didn't work for me. My goals are to supplement about 75% of our electricity and get a great deal on the return on investment. Try to pay cash and not finance anything.

I checked the other day and to my surprise systems have come down quite a bit as of late but the rebates in my area have stayed the same. It started me thinking about a system again. I was hoping I can bounce what I'm thinking off some of you guys if that is OK and if you can spot some problem areas in my thinking?

First I'm in Northern California 40 latitude. Lots of sunny days here but real hot in the summer about 40 to 50 days over 100 degrees. Lows could be in the teens and rare snow here.

House has a 40 year comp roof installed about 4 years ago. House is a "T shape" that splits the a south facing roof into two sections and puts a limit on what I can put up there. And one side is a little smaller area than the other. South facing sections are within a degree or two of due south with a 7/12 pitch (30.3) degrees. No shading issues until in the evening - full sun 9am to 6pm.

Utility rate is $0.126 KW/hr. We use on average about 900KW per month.

I found a DMSOLAR 5.31KW that looks like it will fit fairly well up there.

These big 77" panels seem like they maximize the usable roof area very well in a portrait layout. I figure a 2x5 block of panels on one side and a 2x4 block of panels on the other side.

Kind of like this |88888..^..8888| if you can imagine.

I think the US5000 inverter uses a 2 string 9 panel design, 327 volts, so it made me wonder if it was a problem having a string with one panel separated by about 30ft? Also because I split the panels into two sections it looks like I would need a few more rails of the Uniraq.

I emailed 6 solar companies in my area for installation price and they started asking questions already. I have not a clue what to expect here. $1000 install for the roof mount? $1000 for electrical? $500 misc? I don't know? What should I expect and what would be reasonable?


As for costs this is what is driving me to think about this.
System is $13,208.00 shipped. I believe no sales tax.
Install $2500.00- WAG!
Total - $15,708.00

My small town offers a $2.80 per watt incentive based upon PTC rating.

263.6x18 for panels and 95.5% rating for inverter. I figured the system to have a 4.53KW PTC rating. Not sure if that is correct?

2.8X4.53=$12,684.00 city rebate.

$15708-$12684 = $3042.00

less 30% federal rebate $907.20 = $2134.80

With 5hrs of sun and 75% efficiency for the system I figure about 2 1/2 years to pay for itself. I know I guessed on the install so for every $500 of additional install cost, it would add 6 to 7 months to the pay off schedule.

IMO this is looking like a great deal but wondering what you guys think? What am I missing here? Thanks!
«1

Comments

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    welcome,
    i'm not always too keen on kits, but it may work out for some people. that kit will assume the pvs will be side by side and yours will be separated, plus there will be other variables encountered. note that for any gt system that one needs to be sure the service entrance box will accommodate that much power on its buses making a new service box almost always a given. maybe you should just ask for quotes again on a 5kw system to see if the installers have better pricing on similar systems rather than you paying possibly more for the kit and possibly higher costs on their labor to install it.

    ps-it's a good time to catch that bug again.:D
  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    It just so happens when we put the new roof in 4 years ago we built a garage too and it has a new 100amp panel with hardly anything in it. It would be about 15ft away from where the inverter would be installed. The inverter would be about 20ft from both strings.

    When I asked for an install quote I also asked for a quote for a system from them for the same size.

    We will see next week what they come back with.

    Thanks and yes it sure looks like a great time right now!
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    I have 16 panels mounted on 4 separate pole racks and it works fine on 1 string.,1 inverter. I have 12 panels on 2 poletop racks and going to install another rack 250 ft from there to add 4 more panels all on 1 string on for other inverter and expect that to work well. So I don,t think you will have any problem having that one panel away from the other one as long as you don,t get chincy with your wire size. solarvic
  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    First Point:
    How can you have a "A" shaped protrusion in your roof and also state their are no shading issues, that peak will shade different sections of your panels depending on the time of the day for sure? post google maps if you want us to really analyze it.

    the only way around this is micro inverters, or a grid tie inverter that has dual tracking like this one
    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=4559

    Next Point:
    Your install price of $2500 is frankly a pipe dream. Installers typically charger $4 to $6 per watt which is 5000x$4= $20,000 to $30,000.

    Third point:
    cost of system is around the following:
    $1.50/watt panels
    $0.50/watt inverter
    $0.20/watt roof mount system.
    Total of $2.20 a watt.

    Do the math installers want a $2 to $4 profit margin per watt. $10,000 to $20,000 for their labor, not very close to your $2500 estimate.

    Last Point:
    a 100amp breaker will NOT work with a standard 5kw grid tie system that has 2 strings and panels that have around 8amps of current (most do).
    (8A+8A)x1.25x1.25 x temp correction factor = 25 to 30a of electricty
    which means a minimum 30amp breaker +100A box =130A
    NEC rules state box cannot exceed 25% of its rated capacity
    Or for you 125A
    Not sure if using microinverts solves this issue?
    I was quoted $1200 to $1500 to upgrade my service box by a pro electrician in NC.
    I decided to take the city's homeowners's test and install my own box. Materials cost $250 and labor was around 8 hrs.

    good luck.
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    Rolllandelliot, Seems original poster wants to buy his own system and get an installer to install it for him. Usually installers don,t want to install the equipment if you didn,t buy everything from them. I know if I was in the business I wouldn,t want to have to assume responcibility for what is might be. sub par equipment bought from someone else. :Dsolarvic:D
  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    Rolllandelliot thanks for your reply. Those are the things I was looking for.

    If the install is $20K then it won't be happening on my house. IMO it wouldn't pay to have a system and wouldn't work for my needs.

    As for shading that was an excellent point. The intersecting roof is a 4/12 pitch and slightly shorter than the south facing roof. But you are right it will still cast a shadow in the bottom of the valley probably more than I realize. I'll watch it closely and try to figure out what the impact it makes on my 9am to 6pm times. I imagine winter solstice would be the worst case. I could also move the bottom panel closest to the valley up to the top row in a step pattern if needed to gain more sun time too.

    As for the electrical, I'll let the 6 companies I called for estimates let me know what they suggest. If I need an upgrade panel then that is what it takes and I'll have to weight the costs.

    But thanks for the heads up on the panel sizing and other points!

    Solarvic - I thought the DMSOLAR kit had some decent equipment? Canadian Solar Panels? Sunny Boy Inverter? Uniraq roof mounts? Is that subpar equipment or are you being sarcastic? :confused:

    Anyway, I'm not married to DMSolar or that equipment but to me it seemed like good equipment and decent pricing.

    The California Solar website has a dozens of solar companies listed for installations. It's probably 10/1 those who don't sell equipment vs those who do. I sent numerous requests out with a priority to those that do sell equipment asking for them for an install quote and to supply a quote for a comparable system. We will see what they come back with and if they come up with the same points as mentioned here.

    We will see what they come back with this next week.

    Thanks for the suggestions, issues and comments. Keep them coming if you have more.

    And sorry to the moderator having to edit and delete the link in the OP.
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    Solarvic - I thought the DMSOLAR kit had some decent equipment? Canadian Solar Panels? Sunny Boy Inverter? Uniraq roof mounts? Is that subpar equipment or are you being sarcastic? :confused:

    Anyway, I'm not married to DMSolar or that equipment but to me it seemed like good equipment and decent pricing.

    #1 You didn,t say it was a sunnyboy inverter! So Us 5000 sounded like a name for chinese junk. #2 I can,t vouch for Canadian Solar, but I try to avoid Chinese made as much as possible. Why our country is in bad financial shape. Reason I bought Kyocera and Sharp. Sharp made in Tennesee and Kyocera made in California. #3 Not everything in kit that you will need. . #4 Electricians don,t work for nothing. I did most of my instalation and still paid an electrician $2100.00 to make a drawing and run wires and conduit. #5 IF you buy a kit you should ask your solar store who the recomend that works with them. #6 You will need permits most likely. I had to send in a plan to my electric co. with check for thier engineering aproval, Once approved, had to get a permit from the township, more money. Then had to pay an inspection fee. Add all that to your cost. Where I live I couldn,t install on roof so used top of pole mounts. 6 inch dia pipe is $10.00 per foot. Also needed cement and a ditchwitch to did trench. So mostly I think it is a pipe dream to get the instalation for the price of $2500.
    No my post about your sub par equipment wasn,t sarcastic. I think it probably is a good time to do this if you can afford it. I think a lot of solar co. are going out of business or going bankrupt because the cost of production is less than they can sell for. When the weaker companys get weeded out the ones left will raise thier prices and profits and get a better control of thier production. Every new thing on the market goes this route. In 1973 when I got interested in snowmobiles there were about 110 manufactures. Now there are 4 main ones in US and Canada. Televisions did this in the 50,s. Bet there are some in my age bracket that remembers these events. solarvic
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    the items in your list are not necessarily junk, but installers are like mechanics who all like to push or use only certain products or brands. if you provide the stuff, even if it is along the lines they like, they will often up their labor costs to you as they can't impose a higher markup on the parts of the system.
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    Niel said what I was saying only with less words. Go to walmart,buy your oil and filter and go to quick lube and see if you can get an oil change!:Dsolarvic:D
  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    If the install is $20K then it won't be happening on my house. IMO it wouldn't pay to have a system and wouldn't work for my needs.

    then you wont' be getting a solar system unless you spend a day or two or 3 or 4 installing the panels yourself i guess. depends on how handy you are.

    $20K is a steal for the gear and labor. No one is going to do a 5kw system for less than $4/watt.

    Best case scenario is you do the work and hire an electrician to wire it up for $2k or so. In charlotte, nc or in south carolina you can do electrical work as a homeowner. some cities have tests you have to pass. they are kind of hard to pass with out a day or two of studying as well. I'm guessing most people would rather just pay an electricain than spend that much time studying.

    If you expect to get labor any cheaper than that good luck.
  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    solarvic wrote: »
    #1 You didn,t say it was a sunnyboy inverter! So Us 5000 sounded like a name for chinese junk.
    I screwed up the model number. All you had to do was ask instead of assume.
    #2 I can,t vouch for Canadian Solar, but I try to avoid Chinese made as much as possible. Why our country is in bad financial shape. Reason I bought Kyocera and Sharp. Sharp made in Tennesee and Kyocera made in California.
    I understand, that is why I have quotes coming for other systems.
    #3 Not everything in kit that you will need.
    I knew this partly because I mentioned a few of the parts. I understand every design is different, but in some respects they are the same and that is why I was asking for advice on what else might be missing. Thanks for the input so far, it has been very helpful.
    #4 Electricians don,t work for nothing. I did most of my instalation and still paid an electrician $2100.00 to make a drawing and run wires and conduit.
    Understood. I said I had no idea what the costs would be so that is why I was asking.
    #5 IF you buy a kit you should ask your solar store who the recomend that works with them.
    Thanks I will do that as long as they qualify for California.
    #6 You will need permits most likely. I had to send in a plan to my electric co. with check for thier engineering aproval, Once approved, had to get a permit from the township, more money. Then had to pay an inspection fee. Add all that to your cost. Where I live I couldn,t install on roof so used top of pole mounts. 6 inch dia pipe is $10.00 per foot. Also needed cement and a ditchwitch to did trench. So mostly I think it is a pipe dream to get the instalation for the price of $2500.
    I'm checking on things but on a roof mount and such what do you expect for an install for a system like mine? Permit, inspection, plans drawn, new electrical panel, tie-in, the electrical and inverter and panels in semi close proximity to each other? $20K + equipment?
    No my post about your sub par equipment wasn,t sarcastic.
    Not sure what to say here so I won't say anything.

    I think it probably is a good time to do this if you can afford it. I think a lot of solar co. are going out of business or going bankrupt because the cost of production is less than they can sell for. When the weaker companys get weeded out the ones left will raise thier prices and profits and get a better control of thier production. Every new thing on the market goes this route. In 1973 when I got interested in snowmobiles there were about 110 manufactures. Now there are 4 main ones in US and Canada. Televisions did this in the 50,s. Bet there are some in my age bracket that remembers these events. solarvic

    I didn't mean to start a Chinese vs US discussion. I was simply trying to figure out the ins and outs of a solar system on my house. If I do get a kit because it is what I can afford it might help a few people locally. If not, then no one locally gets anything. I have to look out for the interests of my family first.

    I really do appreciate all the help and input given here and apologize if I offended anyone.
  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    then you wont' be getting a solar system unless you spend a day or two or 3 or 4 installing the panels yourself i guess. depends on how handy you are.

    $20K is a steal for the gear and labor. No one is going to do a 5kw system for less than $4/watt.

    Best case scenario is you do the work and hire an electrician to wire it up for $2k or so. In charlotte, nc or in south carolina you can do electrical work as a homeowner. some cities have tests you have to pass. they are kind of hard to pass with out a day or two of studying as well. I'm guessing most people would rather just pay an electricain than spend that much time studying.

    If you expect to get labor any cheaper than that good luck.

    Thanks for the ideas. It appears my best bet is to just get the quotes from the locals and see what the break downs would be. Probably get those next week along with a few comparison equipment quotes.

    Thanks for all the advice.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    remember that time is on your side and you need that time to research and compare, don't let anybody sales pressure you into something.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    niel wrote: »
    remember that time is on your side and you need that time to research and compare, don't let anybody sales pressure you into something.

    Also ask the installers about rebates and tax credits. Some have limited funding and are coming to an end. Others have clock limits when they run out.

    For instance in AZ , APS once had $3 a watt rebates, now reduced to $1 a watt because of funding limitations and demand.
  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    Thanks. The city utility rebate is pretty good at $2.80 per PTC watt.

    Hardly anyone has taken advantage of it, mainly due to poor community and unemployment near 15%. I called and there are still funds available and I'm in no hurry but I do not know if the city will renew the program next year or readjust it to deplete the money quickly.

    As to an issue mentioned earlier about the intersecting roof peak casting shadows, I found this animator. http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/daylighthoursexplorer.html

    I checked the amount of sun available at winter soltice and it is 9.2 hours for my location. The shadowing roof has a 22.5 degree slope. Subtracking 45 degrees from the 180 degree day gives 6.9 hours of full sunlight before shadowing would occur if the panels corner is right in the valley.

    In the summer it appears to be 14.8 hours for the day and 11.1 hours of sunlight on the panels before shadowing.

    Those are very rough figures but it appears the setup would work.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    jschner wrote: »

    I checked the amount of sun available at winter soltice and it is 9.2 hours for my location. The shadowing roof has a 22.5 degree slope. Subtracking 45 degrees from the 180 degree day gives 6.9 hours of full sunlight before shadowing would occur if the panels corner is right in the valley.

    In the summer it appears to be 14.8 hours for the day and 11.1 hours of sunlight on the panels before shadowing.

    Those are very rough figures but it appears the setup would work.

    Those sunlight numbers are very high; it looks like you just got the number of hours that the sun is above the horizon. If you are assuming your system will have full output for those hours, that is incorrect and any calculations you make with that assumption will give you drastically inflated and unrealistic expectations. The angle at which the sunlight strikes the modules has a major effect on their output. Indeed, if there are 14.8 hours of sunlight, no matter which way you point your array, at some time during the day the sun will be behind it.

    To see what the equivalent sun hours (hours of 1000W/m^2 insolation) on a tilted surface facing due south at or near your location, see this database: http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/sum2/state.html. For an estimate of what the monthly and yearly output a system of a given size, location, and orientation would be, use PVWatts (http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/).
  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    ggunn wrote: »
    Those sunlight numbers are very high; it looks like you just got the number of hours that the sun is above the horizon. If you are assuming your system will have full output for those hours, that is incorrect and any calculations you make with that assumption will give you drastically inflated and unrealistic expectations. The angle at which the sunlight strikes the modules has a major effect on their output. Indeed, if there are 14.8 hours of sunlight, no matter which way you point your array, at some time during the day the sun will be behind it.

    To see what the equivalent sun hours (hours of 1000W/m^2 insolation) on a tilted surface facing due south at or near your location, see this database: http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/sum2/state.html. For an estimate of what the monthly and yearly output a system of a given size, location, and orientation would be, use PVWatts (http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/).

    Those numbers are not the hours for actual power generation. Those are figures of the amount of sun available per day at my location. I was trying to see if there was enough sun availble in the winter due to the shadows my roof will cast on the panels to make this work. An issue someone brought up earlier with my panel locations. It appears 5 to 6 hours a day of power generation might be possible, even with my roof obstructions.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    jschner wrote: »
    Those numbers are not the hours for actual power generation. Those are figures of the amount of sun availble per day. I was trying to see if there was enough sun availble in the winter due to the shadows my roof will cast on the panels to make this work. An issue someone brought up earlier with my panel locations. It appears 5 to 6 hours a day of power generation might be possible, even with my roof obstructions.

    OK, but power generation at what level? Where are you located? In Austin we have a pretty good solar resource, but even here we only get 5.2 sun hours/day in the winter, and that's assuming no shade at all and optimum orientation.

    I don't mean to be critical, but when you are making decisions about a design for a PV system, the number of hours in a day where the sun is above the horizon is not much of a factor unless you have a tracking system.
  • jcgee88jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    solarvic wrote: »
    Niel said what I was saying only with less words. Go to walmart,buy your oil and filter and go to quick lube and see if you can get an oil change!:Dsolarvic:D

    I agree with Solarvic's and Niel's assessment. When you buy the
    materials, you are essentially evading the profit the installer
    would make on the parts. Fine. But, don't be surprised if he
    ups the price on the labor, to cover the additional risk he is
    incurring (installing equipment he is properly not trained on,
    nor has he a source for authorized technical support).

    And, don't be surprised if he doesn't offer a warranty on the
    total installation. On this last point, notwidthstanding that
    my inverters and solar panels have 15 and 25 year warranties
    respectively, my installer told me, "If anything breaks within
    the first five years, it's on our nickel to fix."

    BUT, regarding Solarvic's comments about oil and lube, that's
    not entirely true. I buy Mobil 1 at Walmart and take it to my
    Toyota dealer when I do an oil & lube, and they have no
    qualms at all. They make up for it by charging me their
    regular price, which would nominally include the cost of non-
    synthetic oil that they don't have to give me. I end up
    saving barely $10, but the reason I do it is because I want
    exactly the right amount* of Mobil 1 in my car.

    *my car is picky because a full change requires 3.8 quarts,
    and mechanics tend to overfill with 4 quarts.

    John
  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    ggunn wrote: »
    OK, but power generation at what level? Where are you located? In Austin we have a pretty good solar resource, but even here we only get 5.2 sun hours/day in the winter, and that's assuming no shade at all and optimum orientation.

    I don't mean to be critical, but when you are making decisions about a design for a PV system, the number of hours in a day where the sun is above the horizon is not much of a factor unless you have a tracking system.

    lol - no problem, I understand where you are coming from. I'm not trying to say the hours in the day are power production hours at all. I was only figuring out how many hours in the day I have with my shadowing issues. If I have only say 3 hours of availble sun in the winter due to shadowing instead of 6.9 hours, wouldn't that be something I should need to know?

    All this was given as a possible issue earlier in this thread by another member. Also my location was given too for google maps. Take a look at that and it might help clarify things for you and why I had to to try to figure these things out.
  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    Mounting ten on each side of your roof would probably work, hard to tell if there are shading issues, but I'm guessing not much.

    I would just install a ground mount in the red area. Looks pretty flat and free of trees. Most communities have a 10' or more set back from the road and adjacent property but that will still give you lots of room.

    Easier for the DIY type and cheaper if you use something like treated lumber that is waterproofed/painted. in the long run since you wont' have to pay $1000 to remove and reinstall the panels if your roof ever needs to be replaced. easier to tilt if you want that and easier to clean.

    2qjhrmp.jpg
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    jschner wrote: »
    lol - no problem, I understand where you are coming from. I'm not trying to say the hours in the day are power production hours at all. I was only figuring out how many hours in the day I have with my shadowing issues. If I have only say 3 hours of availble sun in the winter due to shadowing instead of 6.9 hours, wouldn't that be something I should need to know?

    As long as you realize the just because the sun is above the horizon, that doesn't make it "available" to your array. Of course you need to run a shading analysis, but you need to subtract the hours the other part of the roof shades your array from the hours that the sun *would* fall on it if the roof feature were not there, not from the number of hours the sun is in the sky.
  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    Update -

    I got an install quote of $3500.00 labor + parts from one company. Site looks fine with full sun. Main electrical panel may need an upgrade. No problem installing someone elses panels as long I know I'm responsible. Then proceeded to tell me all the warranty repairs he had to do with panels and inverters this year.

    Second company is still working on the install quote and comparable system quote.

    Third company was a bigger company in our area and the site survey was good, electrical panel may be fine with some breaker changes. As expected by some they only sell their their own equipment, Sunpower and SMA. They quoted $40,000 for a comparable 4.9 ac/5.6 dc system-$15,800 after all rebates.

    They also approached me with a Sunpower lease option. Same exact system. Here is the equipment.

    Inverter - SunPower 5000m LINK

    24 - 235W Panels - Here is the 230W info. http://ceusa.com/get/products/sunpower-230-wh.pdf

    Montioring - http://us.sunpowercorp.com/homes/products-services/monitoring/

    $5800 Lease. It can be paid upfront or with a loan. Then in six years there is an option to buy the system out right for $980 but all warranty for equipment would be mine. However, the install warranty still good for another 4 years. Or I continue with the lease at no additional cost for the full 20 years with continued full equipment and install warranty for the 20 years. At the very end, I have the option to have it removed for free including roof repairs, continue with a new rental agreement and warranty, or buy it outright for $100.

    I asked them how can they offer this system for basically $10,000 less than me buying it out right and I don't know if this is true but they told me they get more tax breaks than residential buyers do with these leases.

    I have a couple more quotes out there and we will see how those go.
  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    $7.14 a watt is too much.

    the other quote for $3500 sounds too low, which works out to $0.625/watt with no materials,,,,,....but maybe you got some newbie company looking to break into the business. Make sure you get referencese and check out their work.
  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.

    I'm waiting for a copy of the lease but what do you think about it what was initially given as details?

    $5800 for thre lease, and suppossedly no other costs for 20 years with full warranty that whole time. Or I buy the system outright for $980 in 6 years.

    The performance chart they gave me is very close to what I figured and has this system making 8638kW/yr for the first year and 7853kW/yr in year 20. It figures out to be $0.04kW

    My utility rate is $0.13kW today. After costs it figures to be about a $15,000 return in 20 years assuming $0.13kW stays the same. Most likely that rate goes up.

    Also, it adds approx a $10K to 15K value to the home with no additional real estate taxes. I lived in this house almost 20 years but if I sell the home, the lease can transfer to new owners.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    jschner wrote: »
    ...
    I lived in this house almost 20 years but if I sell the home, the lease can transfer to new owners.


    CAN being the operative word.

    Would new owner want it ? Can they qualify ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • jschnerjschner Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    mike90045 wrote: »
    CAN being the operative word.

    Would new owner want it ? Can they qualify ?

    Can is my word not theirs.

    Here are some of the initial answers to my original questions.

    What if we don't do the buy out in 6 years but move say in 10 years? Transfers to new owner.

    Transfer fees? No Fees!

    Buyouts? Yes each year of the lease has a stated buyout just for this instance. example year 10 is just over $$1900.00

    What are the potential costs? The only additional cost would be the buyout, if the new owner wanted it.


    When I get a copy of the lease, I'll try to post it.
  • meridiansolarmeridiansolar Solar Expert Posts: 34
    Re: So much to think about here.

    sorry sounds like a scam a 6kw system is going to cost at least $12,000 in materials alone and they will sell it to you for $6K plus antoher $1k 20years latter for a total of $7k?!?

    Some deals are too good to be true, get references be suspicious. good luck.

    Only way it could be legit is if they somehow cook the books with the feds to get a very large installation fee reimbursed by tax payers.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    mike90045 wrote: »
    CAN being the operative word.

    Would new owner want it ? Can they qualify ?
    If they don't want it and/or don't qualify, the lessor has the option of walking away from it or removing it at their own expense. I don't think the new owner has to qualify for anything above the house loan, though; it's the lessor's decision to lease it or not. The new owner knows that solar is on the house and it might even have been a selling point.

    But how could it add to the value of the property when it's leased? It's not part of the property. That's like saying a leased Mercedes in the driveway adds to the value of a home.

    IANAL and would never want to be one. ;^)
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much to think about here.
    sorry sounds like a scam a 6kw system is going to cost at least $12,000 in materials alone and they will sell it to you for $6K plus antoher $1k 20years latter for a total of $7k?!?

    Some deals are too good to be true, get references be suspicious. good luck.

    Only way it could be legit is if they somehow cook the books with the feds to get a very large installation fee reimbursed by tax payers.

    I looked at a similar deal recently. TheY do cook the books with the Feds, on the deal I looked at they book the lease at $8 a watt and get $1 a watt from the utility. Sounds like the same kind of deal. Questionable? Maybe, but theY take the liability with the Feds.
Sign In or Register to comment.