Down to 250kwh, but need help!

RobertMfromLI

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

chevenstein wrote: »

I have a colleague who runs TWO 30" 2560x1600 displays...four IDEs side by side might actually be too much real estate, but you get the idea.

When I work from home I probably double the house's daily consumption, excepting long sunny days when we run laundry for six hours straight. I'm down to about 50 kWh per month, give or take, and that's still a little high in the winter for my area (upstate NY).

Drool...

I use (on my programming/video machine) 2 displays... 19" each. Third is chained to 4 servers (which host the Star Trek Phase II stuff and stuff for other clients). I actually could use four and move off some of the background (but need to keep an eye on) stuff like the transcoding and rendering to another display or two, leaving the two main ones for programming and web design - but alas, two 19's will do for now. Maybe two 30" one day... or three 23" or something...

Steven Lake

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

chevenstein wrote: »

And don't forget about the other monitor. I too am a professional programmer and need two BIG displays to work effectively. At home I compromise with a large LCD display plus the barely adequate display built into the laptop...

Wow, I'd never thought about that! I'm actually a bit of a traditionalist, so I work with just one monitor and use KDE desktops to separate out my work if I need more than one workspace. My logic is that I only need to be looking at one thing at a time, so two workspaces visible at the same time is pointless for me. But oddly enough, that might actually work.

BTW, small side note. I tested the laptop, and at normal usage it's pulling 40w, at full usage, or battery charging, 60w. So moving over to using the laptop full time might be a fairly wise choice. Also, I might try out that dual monitor idea too. The monitor I have is a real sipper. It pulls, get this, 20w. Not bad,eh? So by going to dual monitors (laptop display + bit 28" desktop) I could cut my power usage in half and still be on the net positive side.

chevenstein wrote: »

When I work from home I probably double the house's daily consumption, excepting long sunny days when we run laundry for six hours straight. I'm down to about 50 kWh per month, give or take, and that's still a little high in the winter for my area (upstate NY).

Wow, I'm impressed.:cool:

Also, I found my first culprit. I put a meter on it and was shocked at how much it was drawing (800w constant running 1400~ startup!). I also found out that it's not energy star rated, so that right there is getting the boot the first chance I get. (Thankfully it came with the house, so I count it as a "freebie", thus I won't be quite so fussed at getting rid of it.) I've been doing some digging and there's a few good 18cuft units out there that pull in a paltry 300w with a 600w startup. So that'll shave 500w off my bill right away. The water pump though I'm still working on, as I can't get any info off it (it's a bloody submersible, wouldn't you know it) so I'm having the well guy come out whenever he gets a free day and look at it and see what it's drawing. I'm getting that sinking feeling that I'm probably gonna need a crash cart handy when he tells me what it's drawing.

mikeo

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

That basically has been my experience with the 1/2 HP submersible pump I used to run off solar when I had the camp. And it was a standard, off the shelf 110 volt Franklin motor with the external starter box, easier to start than those with built in starter. and back then I only had 500 watts PV. Like you say, unless you're using one heck of a lot of water

This might be a link worth saving as it speaks to the Franklin motor based pumps
http://www.franklin-electric.com/aim-manual/page-13.aspx
Most brand well pumps found in the big box store have the Franklin motor. The max starting surge is the locked rotor amps and only lasts for a second until the motor starts coming up to speed. For my 1/2 hp pump at 240 volts that's around 32 amps. for a 120 volt pump that is around 64 amps so wire feed has to be sized accordingly to carry the surge. For my 24 volt inverter that would be close to 320 amps surge, for a 12 volt inverter around 640 amp surge. My Sw4024 has no problem starting the well pump though the lights do dim a little when it kicks on, but does not affect my desktop computer.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

mikeo wrote: »

This might be a link worth saving as it speaks to the Franklin motor based pumps
http://www.franklin-electric.com/aim-manual/page-13.aspx

Great info! Thanks Mikeo
Any idea where, or IF we can source an easier starting motor for these pumps and at a reasonable price?

mike95490

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

You need to get the motor specs, and the pump unit specs, and look at the pump curve *, and size it to fit your needs. 3 wire motors start easier than the 2 wire, just needs a different (still inexpensive, made by the zillions) control box.

2 wire 1/2 hp starting 64.4a
3 wire 1/2 hp starting 50.5a

That's 15a difference. at the 12v battery that 15a turns into 144a, that you save. (on 48v it's only 36a savings)


* Pump curves
http://www.grundfos.us/
RESOURCES
WinCAPS and WebCAPS
(incl. pump curves & specs)
[it's stinking software now, and very hard to find a PDF of the curves]
http://net.grundfos.com/doc/webnet/mining/_downloads/pump-handbook.pdf


http://www.us.grundfos.com/web/download.nsf/Pages/92B060D132EE9AD788256561007A3F6F/$File/S4all-ez.pdf

http://www.pumpsetc.com/groundwater/SQEperformanceSpec.pdf

And from home power mag:
http://homepower.com/article/?file=HP98_pg140_QandA_4

and the "wisdom" of the internet
http://www.pumpsonline.com/FAQ.htm
http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/pump.htm

Steven Lake

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

Hmm, this is interesting. The discussion you guys are having, especially with mentioning that the higher voltage (48vdc) is better than the lower (12/24v) for powering off grid systems, got me to thinking, if 48v is better, would it be possible to do a 120vdc system, as that'd be more or less a 1:1 conversion for pretty much everything, save for 240v appliances. Oddly, in doing a little research on this, I stumbled across this thread where you guys were discussing exactly that!

The implications for the battery bank look interesting as well. It makes one wonder if something like this won't become standard in the future. Especially since we started out with 12v systems and have since moved upward to 48v systems already.

RobertMfromLI

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

Steven Lake wrote: »

Hmm, this is interesting. The discussion you guys are having, especially with mentioning that the higher voltage (48vdc) is better than the lower (12/24v) for powering off grid systems, got me to thinking, if 48v is better, would it be possible to do a 120vdc system, as that'd be more or less a 1:1 conversion for pretty much everything, save for 240v appliances. Oddly, in doing a little research on this, I stumbled across this thread where you guys were discussing exactly that!

The implications for the battery bank look interesting as well. It makes one wonder if something like this won't become standard in the future. Especially since we started out with 12v systems and have since moved upward to 48v systems already.

Re: 120VDC Battery Bank
Yes, you can... but, inverters generally are not designed for a 120VDC input - you'd have to build your own, or use a UPS that runs off a 120VDC battery bank. Matching bank specs with input/output power - and charging abilities - on a UPS of that sort would be a real pain, and you may not find one suitable. New, such units are well into the 5 figure range (or higher).


Re: 240VAC
Technically, in a house, there is no such real thing. 240V isn't really delivered to houses. Two 120V feeds are delivered in opposing phases (180 degree phase variance). "Normal" household loads (ie: 120V loads) are connected hot-neutral-(ground) or L-N. A 240V appliance is hooked up to Hot1-Hot2-Ground. Or L-L hookup.

And technically, that's not considered 2 phase (such as 208V, which is two 120V phases 120 degrees off from each other - if memory serves). It's considered "split phase".

Further clarification. Technically, 208V is considered single phase when used... ugh. We use 480V and 208V at the Star Trek Phase 2 studios (handled by an in-building transformer to convert to what we need). All our lighting distro boxes are three phase broken out into three 120V legs.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

RobertMfromLI wrote: »

Re: 240VAC
Technically, in a house, there is no such real thing. 240V isn't really delivered to houses. Two 120V feeds are delivered in opposing phases .

All in the way one looks at it I suppose. The transformer on the pole outside my house has a 240 volt secondary winding, which conveniently has a grounded center tap. The 240 volts from the secondary winding, along with the center tap is supplied to my house. The 120 volts is obtained by using the center tap and either of the 240 volt legs. So yes, where I live, my house is definitely supplied with 240 volts.;)

RobertMfromLI

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

All in the way one looks at it I suppose. The transformer on the pole outside my house has a 240 volt secondary winding, which conveniently has a grounded center tap. The 240 volts from the secondary winding, along with the center tap is supplied to my house. The 120 volts is obtained by using the center tap and either of the 240 volt legs. So yes, where I live, my house is definitely supplied with 240 volts.;)

LoL, note the "Technically" in the beginning of my sentence. Here, talking to 3 different electricians, I was advised I should know what I was talking about and got a long explanation on how a house has 120V supplied to it, via single phase, on two legs which are of opposing frequency, which, when combined (L-L instead of L-N) give a working voltage of 240V via the two 120V supply mains. So, no, your house (according to them) is not supplied with 240V.

Now, I will note, I still don't see the working difference (since there is none)... which is why things are labelled 240V/220V... but, alas, they claim that the technical explanation differs from the simplistic labelling and such.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

Like I say, it's all in the way one looks at it. Electrician, or no electrician It's not nearly so complicated as they would have you believe. Remove the center tap and I'd have nothing but 240

RobertMfromLI

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Like I say, it's all in the way one looks at it. Electrician, or no electrician

LoL, agreed... and I tend to look at it as 240V as well, especially since I've had to hook up numerous things that use 220V/240V.

mikeo

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

L

oL, agreed... and I tend to look at it as 240V as well, especially since I've had to hook up numerous things that use 220V/240V.

I think some electrician are strictly mechanics and really don't know much about theory or how things work. Sometime I wonder how they got their license.

Cariboocoot

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

If you look at the wave form on a scope you'll see what "single phase" and "split phase" are all about. :roll:

System2

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

I recently purchased an 25 cu ft LG refrigerator, two french doors, bottom freezer draw because of its efficency. Only takes 6 watts when idle, and power consumption slowly ramps up to 90 watts when it runs. Takes about a minute to ramp up,

Interior lights are LED and take 10 watts when the door is open. Love it!

Model number is LFC25776SW got it from Home Depot. The low power draw seems to be due to their "linear motor". All I can say is that it is very quiet and certainly the best I have ever owned.

solarvic

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

I was going to buy one of those LG refrigerators till I read about all the negative feedback and problems that some of them had. Some catch on fire! Have lots of problems with failed control boards where the LED bulbs stay lit and thaw out the freezer, melts the plastic inside fridge ect. Some people have changed the control boards mutiple times. I will say I liked them and think they are preety efficient for the size. Was ready to pull the trigger until someone here told me to do some research. Google fires with LG refrigerator or problems with LG refrigerators. Also have been told the LG compressors don,t last too long. So instead of buying a new fridge I fixed icemaker on present fridge and bought small Danby freezer because I thought it was American or canadian made. Turned out the Danby was made in China with an LG compressor. Hope we both beat the odds and you don,t have any problems with your LG refrigerator. I do have other LG products and havn,t had any problems with them yet. Front load washer, gas dryer and a small screen tv. :Dsolarvic:D

waynefromnscanada

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

mikeo wrote: »

L
I think some electrician are strictly mechanics and really don't know much about theory or how things work. Sometime I wonder how they got their license.

You hit the proverbial nail on the head with that one Mikeo! That's been my experience as well. With a background in electronics, I can run theory circles around most of the electricians I've encountered, and they don't like it one little bit. After all they're in the union, and I'm not. I also get called over to the nearby machine from time to time to get their equipment running again. Things the electricians should know about, but don't. No, I'm not bragging, just stating a fact. I don't know everything - far from it, but the problems they can't handle are mostly basic theory stuff, things they SHOULD know, but don't. I don't mind doing it from time to time, but they're the ones who should be doing it. Sad really.

niel

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

You hit the proverbial nail on the head with that one Mikeo! That's been my experience as well. With a background in electronics, I can run theory circles around most of the electricians I've encountered, and they don't like it one little bit. After all they're in the union, and I'm not. I also get called over to the nearby machine from time to time to get their equipment running again. Things the electricians should know about, but don't. No, I'm not bragging, just stating a fact. I don't know everything - far from it, but the problems they can't handle are mostly basic theory stuff, things they SHOULD know, but don't. I don't mind doing it from time to time, but they're the ones who should be doing it. Sad really.

wayne and mikeo,
electricians don't need theory so much as they need to know laws and rules/regulations. they are preprogrammed to use and do certain things under certain circumstances and they haven't a clue why in many instances. throw something new or different at them and they are lost. it happens with solar installs often and that shows they aren't up on the rules and regulations or laws in many cases as these are in place so that these guys don't need extra education. it's a no need to think as you do as you are told type of thing. don't get me wrong as some electricians are smart and do know what the score is beyond something like the nec or local laws and those are the guys you want doing your work.

Steven Lake

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

mikeo wrote: »

L
I think some electrician are strictly mechanics and really don't know much about theory or how things work. Sometime I wonder how they got their license.

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

You hit the proverbial nail on the head with that one Mikeo! That's been my experience as well. With a background in electronics, I can run theory circles around most of the electricians I've encountered, and they don't like it one little bit. After all they're in the union, and I'm not. I also get called over to the nearby machine from time to time to get their equipment running again. Things the electricians should know about, but don't. No, I'm not bragging, just stating a fact. I don't know everything - far from it, but the problems they can't handle are mostly basic theory stuff, things they SHOULD know, but don't. I don't mind doing it from time to time, but they're the ones who should be doing it. Sad really.

Well, understanding things mechanically (I'm highly mechanically inclined) is how I understand things long before I ever get my mind around the theory. Sure, I eventually understand the theory, but not until I've understood it from a mechanical sense. Yes, it's a weird way to learn, but when you're ADD, anything that speeds the learning process is a plus.

snuffy

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

What is this the beat up electricians thread?

mikeo

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

Yes, it's a weird way to learn, but when you're ADD, anything that speeds the learning process is a plus.

This is also very true for me. I would haven't gotten my degree in Physics and Engineering without the many labs where I could see how things work with my own eyes. My concern is when the professional give the wrong information when they should know better. This group is really good at getting out good information and calling people on it when they get it wrong.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

snuffy wrote: »

What is this the beat up electricians thread?

No, just exposing the reality that in spite of being in the Electricians Union, and what some of the ones I've dealt with apparently think, they are indeed not God, any more than the rest of us are. Peace be with you.

snuffy

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

I worked with hundreds of electricians in 30 years and found them to be pretty much like other folks with strengths and weaknesses like other folks. Can't say I ever met one that thought they were god though. I knew some that were convinced they knew god and what god thought but that's fairly common across the board with people in general also. Some did the heavy stuff like pulling 350 through 4 inch and some did the heady stuff like troubleshooting robotic systems.

Shane Jackson

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

Cariboocoot wrote: »

If you look at the wave form on a scope you'll see what "single phase" and "split phase" are all about. :roll:

Yep... and 240v single phase does exist.... internationally. But that a different topic.

Shane Jackson

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

Steve,

I am in the same boat as you, well sort of. What I am doing is going with a 48v system and using 2 Apollo TSW4048 inverters. They are the best priced inverters that offer split phase that I could find. Also they have built in chargers so you can tie them to you grid power and keep you batteries topped of when the sun is running low. :cool:

As for panels I am going with laminates and building a solar tracker system. Plans are to go with 12 - 245watt panels per tracker (3 series of 4 panels). That gives me a VOC of 150. So I will need a XW-MPPT60 for each tracker. I have enough laminates for 2 trackers right now but may snatch some more since they are on sale for .50/watt right now.

The biggest problem I have is real estate. As you can imagine the trackers will be rather large at 13ftx16.75ft. Yea think mini billboard. LOL

Shane

mikeo

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

What is this the beat up electricians thread?

No intention to beat up on most electricians, most are qualified to do what they are trained to do. It is those few who give out wrong info that I am questioning, especially when it is just basic electric theory. My father was and journeyman electrician who only had a 7th grade education back in the 40's and 50's. But he knew his craft, and the engineers would often turn to him when the drawing wouldn't work. He worked on major dams, nuclear plants, pulp mills, sub bases, oil refineries, major water diversion projects etc. I attended 16 different schools until I hit high school.

RobertMfromLI

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

mikeo wrote: »

No intention to beat up on most electricians, most are qualified to do what they are trained to do. It is those few who give out wrong info that I am questioning, especially when it is just basic electric theory. My father was and journeyman electrician who only had a 7th grade education back in the 40's and 50's. But he knew his craft, and the engineers would often turn to him when the drawing wouldn't work. He worked on major dams, nuclear plants, pulp mills, sub bases, oil refineries, major water diversion projects etc. I attended 16 different schools until I hit high school.

I suspect it's truly nothing lacking on any electricians' parts, in either respect. It's just a matter of how one looks at it. For instance, there is no 240V wire in the vast majority of household electric setups. It's two 120V legs - which is even how 240V gets delivered from the box to appliances that need 240V. VASTLY different than wiring 240V L-N-G overseas. Thus, their explanation in that respect ("It's not 240V, it's two opposing/split phase 120V, etc, etc") makes perfect sense. As much sense as those who say "It's 240V being delivered, based on how it's used and the transformer setup, etc".

It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. And in this case, neither perspective is truly incorrect, at least as far as I can see.

Steven Lake

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

Now this might sound a bit off the deep end in proposition, but going back to the idea of a 120vdc->ac system if you can get an improved performance simply by going from 12->24->48v, why not take two 48v setups and blend them together? In doing that you could get both an easy 240v power linkup, and a more spread out 120v system. Plus, if you're splitting the load, or sharing it between two 120v inverters, I would think that it would be less wear and tear on the system.

At least in theory anyways. Then again, who am I to say, given my rather limited knowledge of electricity systems. ^_^;; Either way, it's just a thought.

Cariboocoot

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

Steven Lake wrote: »

Now this might sound a bit off the deep end in proposition, but going back to the idea of a 120vdc->ac system if you can get an improved performance simply by going from 12->24->48v, why not take two 48v setups and blend them together? In doing that you could get both an easy 240v power linkup, and a more spread out 120v system. Plus, if you're splitting the load, or sharing it between two 120v inverters, I would think that it would be less wear and tear on the system.

At least in theory anyways. Then again, who am I to say, given my rather limited knowledge of electricity systems. ^_^;; Either way, it's just a thought.

The efficiency improvement from increasing the system Voltage from 12 to 48 does not follow to using two parallel 48 Volt inverters. "Wear and tear" really only comes in to it when you run a system close to its limit; i.e. consistently drawing better than 75% of its peak Wattage capacity. "Blending" two inverters is not as simple as it sounds: big difference between sourcing two inverters from one DC bank and coupling the AC outputs either for higher Voltage or greater current capacity.

BB.

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

You are correct--There are larger inverter systems that use 120 VDC or higher voltage battery banks. Typically used in computer rooms and such.

Big issue is that DC Battery current is already pretty scary--Upping the voltage even more would more worrisome. Plus, there is quite a bit of UL and NEC regulations that pretty much use 60 Volts as the maximum before you have to treat everything as hazardous voltages--which require more design/manufacturing issues to be addressed for >60 volt products (isolation, protection, testing, etc.).

Some day, assuming off grid / hybrid systems continue to grow in wattage--somebody is probably going to address these issues with a "high DC Voltage" battery bank and all the issues that go with that...

-Bill

-Bill

mike95490

Re: Down to 250kwh, but need help!

BB. wrote: »

..

Some day, assuming off grid / hybrid systems continue to grow in wattage--somebody is probably going to address these issues with a "high DC Voltage" battery bank and all the issues that go with that...

That's called a Prius