replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

ws9876ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 404 ✭✭✭
i would like to replace my 240v Franklin submers. with a really modern 110 volt sub pump that
would run well off an Outback inverter.The Outback is 110v. Water level is 80 ft and pump is at 120 ft. roughly.
I would run it for now on grid power and later with inverter. I guess I would need new controls too and the wires are big 240 wires. I dont think I could change them...they are buried.I have a normal pressure tank. Any ideas??

Comments

  • PhilSPhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

    I'm extremely satisfied with our Grundfos SQflex pump installed a couple of years ago. It operates just fine from a Xantrex SW2512 inverter at 120VAC. The pump will accept AC or DC in a wide range of voltages.

    They are not inexpensive. Most things good, aren't.

    I've made past posts about it if you search under my user name. Or feel free to ask questions in this thread or by PM.

    Phil
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,047 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

    you MUST look at the pump curves (power vs water) for the 2 pumps you are considering.

    Just because some sales droid says the 110V is more efficient, does not make it so.

    At 110V, your starting surge will be MUCH larger than the surge for 240V. And until you go to 3phase or DC, there is not much more efficient than the 3wire Franklin. (note: Grundfos SQflex is a DC MPPT system, pricey)
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • PhilSPhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v
    mike90045 wrote: »
    you MUST look at the pump curves (power vs water) for the 2 pumps you are considering.

    Just because some sales droid says the 110V is more efficient, does not make it so.

    At 110V, your starting surge will be MUCH larger than the surge for 240V. And until you go to 3phase or DC, there is not much more efficient than the 3wire Franklin. (note: Grundfos SQflex is a DC MPPT system, pricey)

    Dang, I guessed I missed some previous posts that mentioned you're considering two pumps. Certainly not the first (nor last) time I read too fast to absorb all the details.

    I just wanted to add that there is NO surge with the SQflex... there's a couple of second delay after the pressure switch says "pump", then the unit slowly starts to increase pumping and power consumption. The power use is monitored by a digital readout on the CU200 pump controller which adds to the expense but is something I'd define as "required".

    Phil
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,047 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

    2 pumps.
    1 = current pump.
    2 = the one he's looking to replace it with.

    To just randomly swap one pump for another, well, seems like an odd idea.

    Here, buy these magic beans, they are better than the other beans you have at home.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,090 admin
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

    Depending on your pumping needs (and size pump, capacity of well, etc.)... Look at Variable Frequency Drives (VFD).

    You need either a 3 phase pump, or a 1 phase pump with capacitor at well head.

    Will allow you to reduce surge and adjust pump RPM to better match your pumping needs.

    I am not sure how widely VFD's are used in the well pumping industry in the US--but some substantial energy savings are possible at lower costs than a Grundfos or other "DC" (or AC/DC) pump.

    I know there is at least one person here (from Europe) that is using a VFD on his pump.

    -Bill "don't have well--just from what I have been reading" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v
    ws9876 wrote: »
    the wires are big 240 wires.
    Well guess what, if you go to a lower voltage, unless you reduce HP a lot, like cut it in half or more, these "big 240 volt" wires may not be big enough! The Franklin 240 volt motors are not all that inefficient, and one reason for going 240 volts instead of 110 volts, is to reduce the power loss in the long wires from source to motor, that usually exist in deep well situations. I can see you spending huge $ for very little overall increase in efficiency of the system as a whole. But to each his own.
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v
    mike90045 wrote: »
    you MUST look at the pump curves (power vs water) for the 2 pumps you are considering.

    Just because some sales droid says the 110V is more efficient, does not make it so.

    At 110V, your starting surge will be MUCH larger than the surge for 240V. And until you go to 3phase or DC, there is not much more efficient than the 3wire Franklin. (note: Grundfos SQflex is a DC MPPT system, pricey)
    I think you are misleading people about the grundfus pumps. You say they are expensive ( in the $600.00 price range) and need a big power surge. There are 3 different variations of the sq pump. The basic model called just SQ comes in 115 vac and 230 vac version and only needs a 10% power surge when starting. It can use a regular pressure switch also. Then there is the SQ/e which is bigger pumps. The SQ/Flex which you refer to is preety expensive and runs on solar or windpower. I have a sq I am going to install so I don,t need 220 and a lot of batterys to start it. The starting surge should only be about 105 watts over running and should serve my purpose just fine as others here are getting served by thier grundfus SQ pumps. solarvic
  • ws9876ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 404 ✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

    should I consider a 240v inverter ????the well is my only 240 load..
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v
    ws9876 wrote: »
    should I consider a 240v inverter ????the well is my only 240 load..

    Depends on current flow, size of wire supplying the pump and the length of that wire run. Many sub pumps will give that info on acceptable wire size and length in the owners manual. The numerous Franklin powered sub pumps I've been involved with in various locations over the years all had such info. Hopefully new ones still do. One system I worked on actually had a booster transformer to up the voltage heading out on a long run to the pump, by 20 volts to counter line loss to the pump. One thing I'm going to play around with sometime when I get a chance, is to auto-transformer reduce the starting voltage of the Franklin powered sub pumps to see how low we can go and still get a start. Instant start is not required and there is no high torque required to start. In the meantime start electrical loads would be greatly reduced. That's what I already do with my fridge and two freezers, which along with added capacitor start, operate in sequence, one at a time on one of my Morningstar SureSine-300 inverters. Fridge takes priority, then the freezer in the house, followed lastly by the freezer in the outside shop. Voltage is reduced about 15% and available current is thus increased by the transformer until the compressors are near operating speed, then a relay bypasses the auto-transformer, and directly connects the compressor to the inverter for normal operation. Been working just fine that way for about 4 years now. Call me nuts, but hey, it works, and compressors are far harder to get moving than centrifugal pumps which have basically no load on them until the impellers get some revs happening.
  • Ralph DayRalph Day Solar Expert Posts: 927 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

    ws,
    I'd go with the Grundfos slo start sub pump. I replaced a 240v power hog with it and it's great. The 240 unit had an enormous surge on start (40+amps), enough to suck the colour out of the tv set and downsize the picture by 4 inches (for a second or so). The Grundfos just clicks on, no measurable current draw, then ramps up to rated load...not noticable on lights, fans or other appliances.

    Ralph
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    ws,
    I'd go with the Grundfos slo start sub pump. I replaced a 240v power hog with it and it's great. The 240 unit had an enormous surge on start (40+amps), enough to suck the colour out of the tv set and downsize the picture by 4 inches (for a second or so). The Grundfos just clicks on, no measurable current draw, then ramps up to rated load...not noticable on lights, fans or other appliances.

    Ralph

    Sounds like an awesome motor system! How does electrical reliability and water production compare to the standard Franklin 1/2 HP? Is it basically the same pump with a more advanced motor?
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,047 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

    There are several fine print pages of different pumps, that bolt to motors. Each combination has it's own power and pump performance curve. You first need to select performance you need, and can then chose a motor to pair with the pump.
    here's a sample chart

    http://www.us.grundfos.com/web/download.nsf/Pages/92B060D132EE9AD788256561007A3F6F/$File/S4all-ez.pdf

    http://www.pumpsetc.com/groundwater/SQEperformanceSpec.pdf

    they are buried in the mfg's website, but once you know your depth and flow requirements, you can select the RIGHT pump, out of hundreds of combos, with the smallest motor for your needs, and not chose one of the 4 models stocked at the hardware shop.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

    add this to Mikes info

    Performance Curves 5 GPM Model 5S - Grundfos
    www.us.grundfos.com/web/download.nsf/Pages/.../5s-sub.pdf

    a fairly clear graph and other info
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: replacing 240v Franklin with efficient 110v

    search for grundfos 5s:D

    the link ( in the previous post) will be the first result, Mikes link is the second result..

    e
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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