Conext Bridge for XW+ Li-ions from LG and Hoppecke announced for 2nd half 2017

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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    Lithium Ion batteries are pretty sensitive to cell over/under voltages (also depends on specific Li Ion chemistry). Lead Acid batteries are (in general) much more forgiving.

    There are entire websites/books/discussion threads on Battery Management Systems. Generally, for a fully automated system, you need to look at "per cell" battery management (each cell is monitored for voltage, and may have balancing function too).

    It is very difficult for a "standard" AC inverter + Battery charger to adequately manage a Li Ion battery bank without "talking" to a BMS system.

    If you choose to manually configure and operate a Li Ion battery bank--You are taking the risk yourself. LiFePO4 and variants of that chemistry have been made into "house battery banks" (boats, cabins, etc.)... And can be done if you are diligent in your understanding+configuring+monitoring of the system.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10 #33
    Very well said Bill.

    I do know that the XW+ when configured with the Conext Bridge will support AC coupling, Self Consumption, Offgrid, and Back-up applications for XW+ and CSW inverter chargers.

     The Bridge application is completely configured by Schneider for specific battery systems. I would say at this time if you look at the LG RESU 10 battery system you could look at what it will control.  The application you refer to is what Bill is talking about. The Bridge will change all of that and as the title of this thread states, it will be available in the 2nd half of 2017.

    This application is for battery systems with BMS protection built-in already and is a second set of eyes for large Schneider systems.

    I do not know your requirements but if it was me, I would lose the complication of AC coupling and convert your existing solar to the Mppt-80-600v controllers. Two of them can support 12KW of solar and you can lose your grid-tie inverters and not make this as complicated. Either way the Bridge will protect the battery as will it's on board BMS. Two controllers protecting your home :)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • boxermanboxerman Registered Users Posts: 3
    I believe I hear you (and Schneider via their tech document) saying that if Li-Ion with cell level self-protection package is used (Simpliphi, LG RESU - low voltage), AC-coupling could relatively safely be performed today with XW+ and grid- tie inverters that employ frequency-shift power control. This would assume some "blind" power management by the user as the battery will just cut out at over-discharge (hopefully frequency control would protect from over-charge before battery protects itself and cuts out). However, the forthcoming Conext Bridge will add an additional level of monitoring/protection and will add some additional logic for features beyond grid-forming for off-grid - presumably making for an off-gird system more simple to operate without battery protection outages?
  • boxermanboxerman Registered Users Posts: 3
    I also forgot to mention that module level electronics will be required for the solar in this particular example, so AC-coupling is extremely important to me. Is AC-coupling complicated if the inverters are confirmed to function together? Seems to be more simple on paper and allows use of more standardized high-volume products for the solar. But I guess I can see the advantage of DC-coupled if CC and inverter/charger are from the same company.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    It is all possible. The simpler the overall design, the easier it is to implement and keep working over time.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Pre-loaded set-points, a couple xanbus connections, and possible firmware. System will indicate battery health, expected life, and SOC.

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 876 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17 #38
    Just speculating, but the only required communication I can think of is a "turn off" signal from the BMS to the charger if cells get too far out of balance (ie, the balancer isn't keeping up) or overheated.   Fixed voltage, current limited charging should already be in good charge controllers.

    Most small lithium BMS systems I've seen use mosfets to:
    a) bypass further charging of any cell that reaches full charge (top balancing)
    b) block all discharging when any cell goes too low
    c) block all discharging when excessive current is detected

    No communications to the charger or inverter needed.  The downside to such systems is that the mosfets put an upper limit on current flows (charge, discharge and surge discharge).
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Keep thinking and also speculating on what happens in very large applications and how current limiting is currently done with large loads and a discharged battery from different battery manufactures. Also the data of SOC, battery life remaining, and battery health being communicated globally and simply. This approach is really is not for the small systems that homebrew and do-it yourself types write about but I suppose if one took the interest it can be done if you want to be responsible about it. 
     I look at it as an easy way for an installer to safely and easily install a high quality Li-ion with it's own BMS. Battery systems like Panasonic, LG Chem, Samsung, Hoppecke, and others communicating (safely) with a home power system with multiple charging sources such as Outback or Schneider.


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • HorseflyHorsefly Registered Users Posts: 268 ✭✭✭
    So @Dave Angelini if this is not intended for us home brew installs, is it a safe bet that it will only be supported by the XW inverters, and not so much for someone like me with the SW4024 (plus the MPPT60-150, and the SCP)?  I'm firmly on a path with batteries right now, but when we have to replace those batteries I'd really hope that LiFePO4 batteries will be a viable alternative.

    Steve

    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 4 x Vmax XTR12-155 12V, 155AH batteries in a 2x2 24V 310AH bank.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    You will have to decide when that time comes and if you were a client I would advise you that, and other things.....
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • HorseflyHorsefly Registered Users Posts: 268 ✭✭✭
    I'm not sure that answered the question, but ok. I guess it is pay to play.
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 4 x Vmax XTR12-155 12V, 155AH batteries in a 2x2 24V 310AH bank.
  • HorseflyHorsefly Registered Users Posts: 268 ✭✭✭
    I just re-read what I said, and realized it might be taken as offensive. No offense intended. A better way with more words (I was in a hurry) would have been: I take it from your response that this is not a retail item, but one that will be through authorized installers and consultants, so if someone wants to utilize it or know more about it, they will have to go through a professional. 

    All that is fine. I was just wondering (independent of whether I have to work through a qualified pro like you) if this new bridge will even work with an SW inverter, rather than the more large-scale XW. 

    Again - Sorry if I worded that badly. No disrespect intended.  I shouldn't respond while taking a quick break from cooking dinner!

    Steve
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 4 x Vmax XTR12-155 12V, 155AH batteries in a 2x2 24V 310AH bank.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Just so much time for this stuff....  

    I can't answer your question as it has not been decided and if you want a guess, it certainly will not be on a public forum unless you lend me a Lawyer.

    There is no reason it will not work but the bridge firmware/hardware is for specific large battery systems and I think down the line they may decide that a cabin is not their target.  Firmware does cost money. The other way for you is to do what others are doing with homebrew Li-Ion. Just be careful as unattended cabins do burn down. I like what Bill wrote.

    Lithium Ion batteries are pretty sensitive to cell over/under voltages (also depends on specific Li Ion chemistry). Lead Acid batteries are (in general) much more forgiving.

    There are entire websites/books/discussion threads on Battery Management Systems. Generally, for a fully automated system, you need to look at "per cell" battery management (each cell is monitored for voltage, and may have balancing function too).

    It is very difficult for a "standard" AC inverter + Battery charger to adequately manage a Li Ion battery bank without "talking" to a BMS system.

    If you choose to manually configure and operate a Li Ion battery bank--You are taking the risk yourself. LiFePO4 and variants of that chemistry have been made into "house battery banks" (boats, cabins, etc.)... And can be done if you are diligent in your understanding+configuring+monitoring of the system.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset



    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • HorseflyHorsefly Registered Users Posts: 268 ✭✭✭
    Sorry about that Dave. I hadn't picked up on it, but having gone back and read the entire thread it's now obvious you are under an NDA on whatever this thing turns out to be. No worries. With any luck, it will be several years before I need to worry about new batteries, and there is no telling where the technology and price point will be on all this stuff at that time.

    Steve

    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 4 x Vmax XTR12-155 12V, 155AH batteries in a 2x2 24V 310AH bank.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    The LG RESU 10 and its smaller capacity energy storage can be doubled and there are plans for different options.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • sub3marathonmansub3marathonman Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
    Looking at Dave Angelini's 1/14 Post (#23), I am left being upset that there has to be another piece of equipment for monitoring the Battery Monitoring System, aka the Bridge.  The Bridge is really just because no BMS maker is going to port their system to Xanbus.  I don't know why Xanbus can't be switched or compatible to a more universal method of data transfer.  The Control Box on my now fairly old system is working fine, but I wish I could monitor things, and change parameters remotely, or even on a set schedule through the computer.  Instead, it is walk to the box, push the buttons, wait to make sure the pushed button actually registered, and then wait until I have to do this again.  I suppose there aren't a huge number of people using it to shift peak to off-peak, and thus resetting parameters throughout the day, but still it would be nice to make things easier if possible.  

    I still have the ancient firmware on the XW60-150 because it is such a hassle to get the special dongle thingy that is required.  

    And, now that I'm thinking of it too, Schneider has even removed their String Sizing Tool from their website, that was spectacular.  So it makes me much less enthusiastic about buying more Schneider equipment if I'm adding PV capacity.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    There is almost always another piece of equipment when you are interfacing one make of a system to another reliably.
    There also is not a reason that the Bridge could not be built into an XW or an SW for that matter, but you would have to buy a new inverter. You probably would not like that either.

    You must have been incognito as the Dongle for installing firmware was replaced with the Combox over 5 years ago. Complete remote monitoring/parameter update anywhere in the world. With Insight you can look at dozens of solar sights, at least I do safely and easily.

    I know you don't know why Xanbus can't be changed to something else just for you.  :)

    The string tool was dated  (there are much better up to date models) and the panels are changing fast enough that it was abandoned.
    I think Bill can give you some info on what he likes. I really do not use them anymore with the HV Mppt.

    Below is a screen shot from Combox, on the left, each of the devices selects a menu that has every adjustable parameter for the device as well as logging, and 10 years of data or more with an SD card. If you like charts and graphs this was made for you...


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Attached is the Bridge brochure. In the picture you can see the LG  Chem RESU10 I have been testing since last year. The Bridge web page will be up and it will list the different Li-ion batteries that are compatible and the firmware to interface the BMS to a Schneider system. Down the road it should be compatible with the Conext SW inverter chargers. I would say it works very well with the XW+ :)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭✭
    they sure make it easy, NOT, to find that matrix....  try a search for it...NADA ..

    from most of the hits,  Missing: bridge ‎compatibility ‎matrix

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3 #51
    You can blame Schneider if you want but it is me trying to load this acrobat from my desktop.
    Could I have some help Bill?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭✭
    Dave, not you, I opened that PDF and on page 2  first section it says..To get a full list of compatible batteries, devices and supported confgurations, please refer to the Bridge Compatibility Matrix Document on our website.


    I could not locate it on their site, a google search is almost empty.

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators Posts: 26,872 admin
    I cannot find anything more (I cannot even find this PDF file on the web)... Dave, your PDF file displays fine.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3 #54
    Thank-you Bill  :) I thought there was a problem here on wind and sun.  

       Mr. Westbranch, as the title of this thread tries to convey, the Bridge is scheduled for release sometime in the 2nd half of 2017.  My calendar says it is not there yet.  Even my Canadian engineers/business buddies say that their calendar is the same as mine. I should have spelled it out and to be fair, the team leader told me that. Just too busy here.

    It really is the battery system that is going to hold-up Outback or Schneider. The best being built are in South Korea and most of us know that issue. I won't be going there for training... LG Chem is building a plant here, if you search the internet you can find out more about this RESU10.

    It is still pretty amazing to me to have a 95% charging efficiency after decades of lead acid. An inverter that is around 95% at 1Kw load which is about where my cooling and heating consume. It is like what solar tracking does for battery life/load support and really helps in winter.

    Nice to be at 98% at 8am!



    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3 #55
    Dave, as BB/ Bill said, your links, both, are working I guess the 'printing' department is behind as I was expecting to find the "matrix' (without Keanu Reeves intervening ;) ) fairly easily, but multiple parameter searches came up dry.... maybe I don't think like the Schneider computer /website folks do when they do a search...  :*
    I guess we will all have to wait for July to see which batteries can be used... :)
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5 #56
    I do not understand the Keanu Reeves thing but I do not watch much television or entertainment.
    I will say that Schneider Electric and Schneider Electric Solar can make a search or break it. They are a huge company.
    The Solar folks in your country are saying later this month but they said that in February also. It is a management decision, my guess is
    there has to be batteries available at distributors. Try searching that :)

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • gbaiggbaig Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Thank-you Bill  :) I thought there was a problem here on wind and sun.  

       Mr. Westbranch, as the title of this thread tries to convey, the Bridge is scheduled for release sometime in the 2nd half of 2017.  My calendar says it is not there yet.  Even my Canadian engineers/business buddies say that their calendar is the same as mine. I should have spelled it out and to be fair, the team leader told me that. Just too busy here.

    It really is the battery system that is going to hold-up Outback or Schneider. The best being built are in South Korea and most of us know that issue. I won't be going there for training... LG Chem is building a plant here, if you search the internet you can find out more about this RESU10.

    It is still pretty amazing to me to have a 95% charging efficiency after decades of lead acid. An inverter that is around 95% at 1Kw load which is about where my cooling and heating consume. It is like what solar tracking does for battery life/load support and really helps in winter.

    Nice to be at 98% at 8am!




    Hi, your battery shows SOC at 98%. In my case it always shows Zero% while it fully charged. When I press Sync on my Battery monitor then its get refreshed and start showing 100% charged. What is the reason? Every day from time to time it shows less and less state of charge (while battery is fully charged)


  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Please start a new thread as I would like this to stay about the Conext Bridge and the LG battery.
    List your equipment and we will try and help.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • gbaiggbaig Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Attached is the Bridge brochure. In the picture you can see the LG  Chem RESU10 I have been testing since last year. The Bridge web page will be up and it will list the different Li-ion batteries that are compatible and the firmware to interface the BMS to a Schneider system. Down the road it should be compatible with the Conext SW inverter chargers. I would say it works very well with the XW+ :)

    Dave Angelini said:
    You can blame Schneider if you want but it is me trying to load this acrobat from my desktop.
    Could I have some help Bill?

    Thank-you Bill  :) I thought there was a problem here on wind and sun.  

       Mr. Westbranch, as the title of this thread tries to convey, the Bridge is scheduled for release sometime in the 2nd half of 2017.  My calendar says it is not there yet.  Even my Canadian engineers/business buddies say that their calendar is the same as mine. I should have spelled it out and to be fair, the team leader told me that. Just too busy here.

    It really is the battery system that is going to hold-up Outback or Schneider. The best being built are in South Korea and most of us know that issue. I won't be going there for training... LG Chem is building a plant here, if you search the internet you can find out more about this RESU10.

    It is still pretty amazing to me to have a 95% charging efficiency after decades of lead acid. An inverter that is around 95% at 1Kw load which is about where my cooling and heating consume. It is like what solar tracking does for battery life/load support and really helps in winter.

    Nice to be at 98% at 8am!



    Thank-you Bill  :) I thought there was a problem here on wind and sun.  

       Mr. Westbranch, as the title of this thread tries to convey, the Bridge is scheduled for release sometime in the 2nd half of 2017.  My calendar says it is not there yet.  Even my Canadian engineers/business buddies say that their calendar is the same as mine. I should have spelled it out and to be fair, the team leader told me that. Just too busy here.

    It really is the battery system that is going to hold-up Outback or Schneider. The best being built are in South Korea and most of us know that issue. I won't be going there for training... LG Chem is building a plant here, if you search the internet you can find out more about this RESU10.

    It is still pretty amazing to me to have a 95% charging efficiency after decades of lead acid. An inverter that is around 95% at 1Kw load which is about where my cooling and heating consume. It is like what solar tracking does for battery life/load support and really helps in winter.

    Nice to be at 98% at 8am!




    Thank-you Bill  :) I thought there was a problem here on wind and sun.  

       Mr. Westbranch, as the title of this thread tries to convey, the Bridge is scheduled for release sometime in the 2nd half of 2017.  My calendar says it is not there yet.  Even my Canadian engineers/business buddies say that their calendar is the same as mine. I should have spelled it out and to be fair, the team leader told me that. Just too busy here.

    It really is the battery system that is going to hold-up Outback or Schneider. The best being built are in South Korea and most of us know that issue. I won't be going there for training... LG Chem is building a plant here, if you search the internet you can find out more about this RESU10.

    It is still pretty amazing to me to have a 95% charging efficiency after decades of lead acid. An inverter that is around 95% at 1Kw load which is about where my cooling and heating consume. It is like what solar tracking does for battery life/load support and really helps in winter.

    Nice to be at 98% at 8am!



    I have received following email from LG Korea regarding Schneider compatibility with LG Che

    From: 윤병훈(Byunghoon Yoon)[lghoon] <lghoon@lgchem.com>
    Sent: May 9, 2017 8:25 PM
    To: G Baig
    Subject: RE: LG Chem 5.5kv
     

    Hi,

    I’m sorry for the confusion that our brochure is not explaining correctly.

    Schenider inverter has not completed the matching test at the moment and

    we are planning to complete the test within May.

    Please note this and don’t use the Schenider until we complete the test.

     

    Thank you.

    Ryanm Li Ion Batter

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭
    Since you do not have the Schneider Conext Bridge gbaig  and since Schneider has not released it as I explained, you will have to wait. The Thread title here is sometime in the 2nd half of 2017. That could be 12/31 but as the engineer from LG stated probably next month there will be news and hopefully a web page.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • gbaiggbaig Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Context bridge seems to be not compatible with XW6048, is that right understanding?
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