The new Conext SW4024 review

Vic · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

OK, Damani,

Thanks for the info, and will look for any additional data.

Earlier in this Thread, I had demeaned Schneider for cutting corners on the fan control electronics. Obviously that was in error, and know that Schneider has been waiting for my apology, Am very sorry for my misstatement, Mr. Schneider.

It appears that there might need to be a bit of fine-tuning of the Fan run FirmWare. The old SW+es run their fans almost never, although we do aggressively run A/C in the power room. During a long Bulk charge, these SW+ inverters will not run fans for 45 minutes or so, at 65 - 70 Amps charge current each, and then only at the low speed. They are large-ish inverters and have quite a lot of thermal mass, however.

Thanks, Damani, for this Thread, as the discussion has been good. And, I might well have done just what you have been doing with this SW inverter -- set it up temporarily and give it a run. As I had wondered about this inverter, I DO appreciate your reports. Thanks, Vic

ChrisOlson · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Hmm. Mine doesn't make any noticeable sound when the fan is not running.

You don't have a XW. A 6048 at full load sounds like a 250 kVA utility transformer on steroids. Bump the load up to 8 kW and then it sounds like a 250 kVA utility transformer on steroids that just took a big lightning surge. But it's like, hey - don't install it in the bedroom, ya' know?

Although there are plenty of people on this planet that are stupid enough to build their house by a railroad track, then complain because trains go by :roll:
--
Chris

ChrisOlson · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Dapdan wrote: »

To be fair to this process you need to recognize that the room is well ventilated as I had taken a picture showing two windows near The shelves with inverter. I don't get you fixation with the cardboard...it is there to prevent paint smugging onto the inverter.

I was just in our utility room a bit ago and thought of this thread. You know why? Our utility room is not ventilated at all - we like to keep dust out of it. It is insulated, but it's hot and windy here today and it's 81 degrees in the utility room.

Both of my Classics on the wall are going full bore and sound like my wife's hair drier - except they're not quite screaming in tune with one another so it sounds really irritating. Right above them I got two XW-MPPT60-150's that are handling 4-5 kW and they are totally silent. So the MPPT60's must have much better "thermal management" because they don't even have fans.

I couldn't hear if the fan was running in the XW or not over the din from the Classics screaming away. So I put my ear up to it - OMG! The fan is running in it! Only 820 watt load on it! I suppose I should be worried about that. But I'm not. I'm more worried about those Classics. Can't touch either one of 'em today without getting burnt. They are HOT, and they aren't handling any more power right now than the dual MPPT-60's. I can at least touch the MPPT60's and they're nice and warm but you won't get burnt by touching one. You can spit on those Classics and it sizzles on the heat sink. I should go out to the utility room and take a movie of that

--
Chris

Ralph Day · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Maybe just flick some water on the Classics? If the Classics are running hot how much wind are you harvesting? Windy at my locale.

Ralph

Dapdan · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Vic,

It is my pleasure. Any info from my layman experiments I will continue to post, I know someone out there will find it useful.

Chris,

I look forward to your movie. I hope you are going to be the protagonist.

Cheers...
Damani

boB · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Chris, what was the input voltage on the two controllers when the Classic(s) were hot ? (turbine DC voltage at high power)

What is the solar MPP voltage on the input of the XW-MPPT ?

Assuming a similar output power of course.

boB

vtmaps · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

ChrisOlson wrote: »

I'm more worried about those Classics. Can't touch either one of 'em today without getting burnt. They are HOT

Chris, I seem to remember on another thread that you mounted the classics directly to a wall, without some sort of (recommended) metal spacer to allow ventilation behind them. Did you ever correct that? --vtMaps

tons001 · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

vtmaps wrote: »

Chris, I seem to remember on another thread that you mounted the classics directly to a wall, without some sort of (recommended) metal spacer to allow ventilation behind them. Did you ever correct that? --vtMaps

Recommended metal spacer? I must have missed that information. I did put a piece of aluminum between the Classic and the plywood it is mounted on. Mine does not run real warm at all but should I consider remounting it?

ChrisOlson · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

boB wrote: »

Chris, what was the input voltage on the two controllers when the Classic(s) were hot ? (turbine DC voltage at high power)

What is the solar MPP voltage on the input of the XW-MPPT ?

boB, the turbines were probably handling a little more power than the MPPT60's yesterday. They were running, on average 130-144V, and rarely below 120V. I have the top of the power curve set at 144. But the Classic will sort of "extrapolate" the power curve out beyond the Step 16 set point sometimes in a good strong wind. So I set the clippers at 148V. So the turbines were around 2 kW each on average, with peak to 3.5 kW each.

The MPPT60's were running around 87V input yesterday and ~2,000 watts.

But the Classics do run quite a bit warmer than the MPPT60's do. Even at lower outputs. The little blowers in the bottom that blow air up thru the Classics are running all the time above 500-600 watts output, and at 500 watts the input voltage is around 95-100V. My power curves are really steep for the first few steps to get the turbine spun up and keep the rotors at TSR7 until they get to around 800-1,000 watts where the curve starts to flatten out and the voltage climbs slower vs DC output. Probably not the most efficient from the Classic's standpoint. But the high voltage doubles the efficiency of the turbine's generator and minimizes losses in the wire run and rectifiers. If I lower the voltage, then the generators and rectifiers run hotter and the Classics run cooler. I determined with much experimenting that I get more to the battery by running the Classics hotter and the turbines cooler

In my testing the Classic is about 90% efficient in the conversion from 144V @ 3.5 kW output. So we have about 3,900 watts input, 3,500 watt output. The Classic is dissipating around 400 watts as heat.
--
Chris

mike95490 · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

ChrisOlson wrote: »

.....
In my testing the Classic is about 90% efficient in the conversion from 144V @ 3.5 kW output. So we have about 3,900 watts input, 3,500 watt output. The Classic is dissipating around 400 watts as heat. Chris

Dang ! That's sad. Is that the case with PV too ? I'm about to hook up a 2KW array to a classic, but if it's undersized on the heatsink and has to run a fan all the time (it will be on the west array, when things are warmed up, it will hit it's peak) maybe I should stick with the tristar mppt instead. Even cranking 3KW, it's passive heat sink is only 55C (131F) on a 95F day (why can't they make a selectable readout !!)

ChrisOlson · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

mike95490 wrote: »

Dang ! That's sad. Is that the case with PV too ?

Well, actually that's not all that bad. A typical 4 kW inverter at 3,500 watt load is only going to be about 90% efficient. It's hard to perform miracles because of ohm's law. Nobody I know has found a way around ohm's law yet. The Classic uses fans and the MPPT60's use huge heat sinks with large fins. The MPPT60's are more efficient electrically - I've taken enough measurements to be satisfied of that. But no matter - when you convert 140V down to 60V you get losses in heat. You got to get rid of that heat somehow.

The less of a conversion you do (like from 85V down to 60V) then you get less heat in the conversion loss because it's more efficient. So with PV you can wire your strings closer to battery voltage. With a wind turbine that's hard to do. A wind turbine that cuts in at 60V wants to run at 180V at full power output to maintain rotor TSR. So with a wind turbine on 48V we have to use the upper range of voltage with the Classic to make the turbine most efficient. On 24V you can cut the turbine in at 40V and reach ideal tip speed at 120VDC input to the controller. But the controller won't handle the amps from a 24V turbine so it "clamps" it with the clipper at about 92-94 amp output because the controller won't handle any more.

So there's tradeoff's either way.
--
Chris

boB · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Well, actually that's not all that bad. A typical 4 kW inverter at 3,500 watt load is only going to be about 90% efficient. It's hard to perform miracles because of ohm's law. Nobody I know has found a way around ohm's law yet. The Classic uses fans and the MPPT60's use huge heat sinks with large fins. The MPPT60's are more efficient electrically - I've taken enough measurements to be satisfied of that. But no matter - when you convert 140V down to 60V you get losses in heat. You got to get rid of that heat somehow.

The less of a conversion you do (like from 85V down to 60V) then you get less heat in the conversion loss because it's more efficient. So with PV you can wire your strings closer to battery voltage. With a wind turbine that's hard to do. A wind turbine that cuts in at 60V wants to run at 180V at full power output to maintain rotor TSR. So with a wind turbine on 48V we have to use the upper range of voltage with the Classic to make the turbine most efficient. On 24V you can cut the turbine in at 40V and reach ideal tip speed at 120VDC input to the controller. But the controller won't handle the amps from a 24V turbine so it "clamps" it with the clipper at about 92-94 amp output because the controller won't handle any more.

So there's tradeoff's either way.
--
Chris

OK, so the voltage input to the Classic is MUCH higher than the XW-MPPT-60 and the Classic was putting out more power.
That is NOT a fair comparison. The input voltage will make a huge difference.

Try running your XW-MPPT at the same input voltage as the Classic with the same output power and I bet it gets real hot too.

Also, the Classic is NOT dissipating 400 watts. It can't do that. Maybe 100 watts at the most (I think)... Certainly not
400 watts or even 300 watts. Just ain't gonna happen. Try putting a 400 watt light bulb in an empty chassis of that size
and see what you get. THEN you might be able to boil water. Like I said, efficiency is not easy to measure. You don't have the
equipment or experience to measure efficiency accurately.

Large inverters like the XW-6048 CAN dissipate around 400 watts in their transformer. Certainly not the FETs

And the heat sink may be hot but you most likely won't be able to boil water on it. It should be cooler than 100 degrees C.
Maybe 80 at the most ? If that high.

boB

ChrisOlson · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

boB wrote: »

Also, the Classic is NOT dissipating 400 watts. It can't do that. Maybe 100 watts at the most (I think)... Certainly not
400 watts or even 300 watts. Just ain't gonna happen. Try putting a 400 watt light bulb in an empty chassis of that size
and see what you get. THEN you might be able to boil water. Like I said, efficiency is not easy to measure. You don't have the
equipment or experience to measure efficiency accurately.

boB, after spending 19 years as a ME for Cummins don't try to tell me I don't have the experience.

My turbine generators have all been run on the dyno to develop the power curve for them, with shaft power precisely measured along with output power and net power to the battery. Please review the attached for a N20P generator. The tip speed ratio is calculated by the spreadsheet to determine how the generator will run against a particular rotor at a certain wind speed. And then I compare the shaft power requirement of the generator to the rotor's Cp to match it.

This is all run on the dyno with the actual drop cable that will be used down the tower, and the full wire run hooked up and laying coiled up on the floor. The Classic's efficiency is calculated by the spreadsheet based on what I get for measured input power vs measured output. FYI, the Classic's display on both input and output has a fair amount of error compared to actual measured - sometimes up to 5%.

In this particular run I went from 5.3 kW of input shaft power to 3.6 kW of actual output to the battery at peak and with the generator dissipating 1.1 kW in winding heat. The losses all the way down the line are shown, with the final stage being the Classic 150 controller. If the Classic can only dissipate 100 watts, then tell me where my other 284 watts went from my 3998 measured into the controller?

I've got data on better than 40 dyno runs with various generators on the Classic controller.
--
Chris

Aeronb · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

These context inverters have some great features and specs for not a lot of money. Stackable, networkable, built in charger. I wonder what some other owners might have to say about their experiences with them.

Regards,
Aeron

mtdoc · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Chris,

Interesting observations and discussion. I suspect some of the issue with accurate efficiency measurements is where and how input and output power is measured.

Where physically are you measuring? Are you measuring both input and output power simultaneously? What instrument are you using to make your measurements? What is its specified resolution and accuracy? Has it been recently calibrated?

I believe there is a different art and science to EE versus ME.

ChrisOlson · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

mtdoc wrote: »

Where physically are you measuring? Are you measuring both input and output power simultaneously? What instrument are you using to make your measurements? What is its specified resolution and accuracy? Has it been recently calibrated?

It is calibrated every time I make a dyno run, along with the dyno calibrated with a torque arm. I measure the high voltage DC side with a AcuDC 240 at the rectifier output. The low voltage side with a Sun AVR at the battery. When I first started building high voltage DC turbines for the Classic I tested many different designs of generators to find what works the best. Both geared and direct drive models. Nobody that I know of had ever designed a turbine, or the generator for it, specifically for the Classic 150 controller. I was the first, and to this day I don't know of anybody else that has done it except maybe Bergey. And I don't think they designed their generator specifically for the Classic - they just strapped the Classic to it.

So I've probably done more work, research and testing along those lines than anybody else on earth - including the guys at MidNite Solar.

I believe there is a different art and science to EE versus ME.

We all go to the same school. Then EE's split off and make things with wires in it. ME's make things to burn up the stuff that EE's make. It's kind of like the old joke about what's the difference between mechanical engineers and civil engineers? Mechanical engineers build weapons. Civil engineers build targets.
--
Chris

halfcrazy · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

The way to truly measure it is with 4 shunts and 4 calibrated meters. 2 shunts on PV in and two shunts on PV out. We will work towards this in the near future. At the end of the day I think its safe to say the efficiency of different brand charge controllers will be very very close to each other.

As far as the Conext SW (boy this thread got derailed sorry DapDan

) so far every one I know with them Love them. There are a few things but that are present but thats normal in any new electronic device. I can tell you a buddy in Hawaii has one and says it walks circles around the Magnum.

Ryan

Dapdan · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Its alright Ryan. I am enjoying this threads quite a lot. I especially enjoy it when the experts square off.

Cheers...
Damani

Dapdan · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

All,

I have been mum on my issue with the context for the past few days because I have been in regular( at least twice a day since last Thursday) with a very nice, courteous and helpful lady at Schneider. She has listened to my concerns on the fan issue and also the high idle power consumption and has indicated that she will advance said issues to engineer as part of her effort to find some kind of resolution. When all is settled I will post an update for all those interested on this forum. I can say though that so far my communication with her has been a breath of fresh air in contrast to the other customer support stories attributed to xantrex.

Cheers....
Damani

niel · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

this is good to hear dan. i hope you get your answers with some satisfaction. of course let everybody know of any developments.8)

animatt · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

10 year warranty? I am seeing it as a 2 year warranty. Can you clarify? I would be interested in seeing generator support tested out. may have to wait to see chris putting it through some testing. matthew wright

Dapdan wrote: »

To all,

Let me add that I love this inverter but I don't love the fan running 24/7. I am hoping that it is a fixable issue. I know that installing this particular inverter exactly as outlined in the manual will not stop these fans from running 24/7 for my particular conditions. I am clear on that others...not so much. If I had an installation locally where the inverter(probably use the magnum which as better thermal management) is within living space I would not install this inverter unless I am sure that the fans will not run at load below say 200-300w which is what I am averaging night time loads at because if your were within 30ft of this thing the fans may drive you crazy and break up your night time rest. If it is in some utility room or anyother room away from a living space I would use it as it has a 10year warranty so if the fans go bum I can get some kind of fix or replacement. I love the fact that has a 10year warranty (only inverter that I know of that has a standard manufacturer's 10year warranty most others have 5yrs). Therefore I am glad that I purchased this inverter to test before i offered it to a client because I would be embrassed if a client were in my position right now.

Cheers...
Damani

Dapdan · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Ani,

You are correct. It is a 2 year warranty according to the OEM. the 10 year thing was in the description of the vendor whom I bought it from. I would have to bring it to their attention that the 10 yr warranty is an error.

Cheers...
Damani

animatt · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

By the way thanks for your reports. I will be planning to use one in southern mexico with a fairly similar climate to where you use it. I have a bit of time before I need to purchase but looks like a fairly nice product apart from the fans and the related high idle power draws. I am not sure what kind of efficiency gains could happen if it used a toroid transformer rather than an E-I transformer. I would imagine costs were the reason for the choices but I believe the toroid would have significantly lower self power consumption. matthew wright

Dapdan · September 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Matt,

I am glad that my simplified reporting has assissted you in some way. It would be nice if the more technical person on the forum were able to do a more detailed assessment of the functions and features of inverters like these. It would be nice to get real world on the ground reporting so that members of this wonderful forum are better informed. Until then I will report my layman findings so those that are so inclined find them useful in some way.

Cheers...
Damani

Dapdan · October 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

To all,

This is an update. For the past two weeks I have been in regular contact with a very nice and helpful lady at Schneider- Sandra H. She took my issue to her Engineering department and they developed a firmware revision for the Conext SW for the problem that I was experiencing. Apparently there was a bug existing in some models where the fans would come on and then would not turn off once certain temp set points were achieved(Ray Barbee told me this and not Sandra H). I must say that the customer service from both Ray and Sandra was stellar and could not ask for more. In fact I personally meet Ray...but that is another story. In any case Sandra had delivered to me through Ray a brand new Combox and its accessories so that I could update the firmware on the inverter. Sandra was very diligent and sent all necessary instruction and firmware via email. I was successful under guidance and assistance from Sandra in updating the firmware on the Conext SW 4024. I only completed this upgrade last night and so far the fan runtime has decreased. Right now with 200w of load the fans are off where before the fans ran through the night irregardless of no load, light load or heavy load. I have not been able to monitor it continuously and I have promised Sandra I will perform a 6hr continous monitoring for both day and night and report to her. I will also report my finding to this forum as well.

I can not thank Sandra enough for her deligent and keen attention to what others may have considered a minor or non-existent problem. I spoke in person to Ray(Sandra boss) at length and he has indicated to me it is his main goal improve the customer service of Schneider Solar section(which he is in charge of) and I can personally attest to this. I have receive stellar customer service and it appears as though my problem is solved (knock on wood).

I can also say the the combox is the bomb. It relays so much information and I can access it over my LAN on my notebook and tablet. I can reprogramme all the inverter set points with the click of a mouse(the ones you can change anyway). I would say that if you had a choice betweent the scp and combox...go with the combox because it does everything the scp does and more and it is access through the internet and you LAN. You can also use it to perform firmware field upgrades to all other compatible xantrex devices. It also has an input for equipment using modbus and rs485.

I will update my finding with this new firmware as they are available.

Thanks again to Sandra, Ray and Jose. I think everyone should be looking out for good things from the Schneider Solar team. Good work everyone.

Oh and one more thing...they are working on a 48v model to the Conext SW. Sorry Ray if let the cat out of the bag.

Cheers...
Damani

P.S.

A special thanks also to halfcrazy of Midnite. Thanks for the hook-up bud.

Vic · October 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Hi Dapdan,

Thanks a lot for the update.

The only thing that I have disliked, very very much about Schneider is the very poor Customer Service, after the sale was complete.

SO, hope that improvements to CS continue. The few contacts with Schneider Engineering have been very good (these were pre-sale contacts on the XW 600 80 CC). Just that the CS follow-through on products purchased has been quite disappointing in my experience.

Thanks for the update. Great possible news on a 48 V model ... just the one issue (for me) regarding the idle power consumption.

Thanks again DD, Vic

BB. · October 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Damani,

Always great to hear nice things about vendors/manufacturers... Too many times, we all focus on the bad when, in general, "the bad" is usually the exception, and not the rule.

-Bill

SkiDoo55 · October 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

DapDan

Happy to hear of the support and hoping your issue is resolved with the Firmware update. Agree that the ComBox is the preferred accessory to get for any of the ZanBus capable products.
I agree that compared to what was reported past performance of CS I have experienced prompt and polite service from them. Still haven't decided on an SW or the XW for inverter choice for planned backup system.

DMJ72 · November 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Dapdan wrote: »

Oh and one more thing...they are working on a 48v model to the Conext SW. Sorry Ray if let the cat out of the bag.

Cheers...
Damani

P.S.

A special thanks also to halfcrazy of Midnite. Thanks for the hook-up bud.

Glad to hear about the firmware update,
This inverter has just started to see usage here in Jamaica. The switchable 50/60Hz seems tailor made to Jamaica / Barbados with our split phase/50hz grids. I think this will really give Outback a run for their money. The VFX3024J is the best selling inverter out here and for good reason .. it rocks, but there is no 48V version for our market. Looks like Schneider has done their homework. If they do release a 48V of this, at a good price, Outback will be in problems down here.

Cariboocoot · November 2013

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

DMJ72 wrote: »

Glad to hear about the firmware update,
This inverter has just started to see usage here in Jamaica. The switchable 50/60Hz seems tailor made to Jamaica / Barbados with our split phase/50hz grids. I think this will really give Outback a run for their money. The VFX3024J is the best selling inverter out here and for good reason .. it rocks, but there is no 48V version for our market. Looks like Schneider has done their homework. If they do release a 48V of this, at a good price, Outback will be in problems down here.

They don't sell the VFX3048 there?

I wonder why not?

The new Conext SW4024 review

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