Outback mate & hub question

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n1st
n1st Solar Expert Posts: 77 ✭✭✭✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Is a hub needed when using an FX + FM? If so, any chance an internet hub can be used? Their hubs seem pricey :p to say the least.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    You only need the hub if you want the FM & FX to 'talk' to each other. The advantage to this is shared data, such as one remote temp sensor for the batteries being able to adjust the charge parameters on both units.
    An 'Internet hub' is not the same thing.
    It is essential to have a MATE in order to program the FX to your specific needs.
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  • n1st
    n1st Solar Expert Posts: 77 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    Thanks, I didn't understand the role the mate played for the FM. Since I'm not going to fork out the money for their hub, should I plug the temp probe into the FX or FM?
    Can the mate be plugged into the FM?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    You only need the hub if you want the FM & FX to 'talk' to each other. The advantage to this is shared data, such as one remote temp sensor for the batteries being able to adjust the charge parameters on both units.
    An 'Internet hub' is not the same thing.
    It is essential to have a MATE in order to program the FX to your specific needs.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    Attach the RTS to the unit that will be doing most of the charging - presumably the FM. You'll only be using the FX for charging on cloudy days, so a few tenths of a Volt (usually) difference won't matter on the odd day.

    The MATE attaches either ot a hub or to the FX. It isn't needed for the FM, which has its own programming interface through the four buttons and LCD screen.

    If you get up to two or more FM/FX units, then you've got to go with a hub and get them all coordinated!
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  • n1st
    n1st Solar Expert Posts: 77 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    Thanks. Lastly, are there any critical parameters that need to be programmed w/ the mate, or are all of the FX defaults fine? Are there any very nice monitoring features of the Mate like kwh used?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Attach the RTS to the unit that will be doing most of the charging - presumably the FM. You'll only be using the FX for charging on cloudy days, so a few tenths of a Volt (usually) difference won't matter on the odd day.

    The MATE attaches either ot a hub or to the FX. It isn't needed for the FM, which has its own programming interface through the four buttons and LCD screen.

    If you get up to two or more FM/FX units, then you've got to go with a hub and get them all coordinated!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    The MATE doesn't do much for monitoring. Even its AC AMPS reading is pretty flimsy. There's no cumulative recording like the FM has. Its main purpose is programming.

    To that end, the most important thing is to make sure the parameters are right for your generator. The default is something like 18 Amps AC in, and unless you have a pretty big gen that will be way over the limit. The next important thing, for the same reason, is the charge Amps. This is also in AC terms, so you have to mentally convert it to the DC Amp equivalent you want. Otherwise you will need to program the various charging Voltage levels to what works best with your batteries. They should match the FM settings as closely as possible, of course. There are parameters for Bulk, Absorb (including time), Float, and Equalization (which is started manually).

    I suggest you download the manuals for this equipment and read it over and over so you get some idea what you're getting in to! :p
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  • n1st
    n1st Solar Expert Posts: 77 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    It looks like 48a is the default for generator input. Yeesh! I guess I'll have to buy the Mate. :cry:

    I plan on using the FX as a backup to my grid-fed system. So I'll have 2 inputs (manual switch):
    1) a house 20 amp circuit
    2) a 3kwh generator

    From reading the programming manual, am I correct in saying that I want to set Grid Input (non-mobile) at 20 amps and Gen Input at 3 amps, and the rest of the settings can pretty much be the same (upper/lower volatage, etc.)? When the house power fails, and I start the gen/flip the input to the generator, I need to remember to change the Input Select from ? to "Master Gen" on the Mate?

    What does the FX do if I try to draw more than the AC limits... limit the draw from the AC input circuit and increase the draw from the battery bank?

    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    The MATE doesn't do much for monitoring. Even its AC AMPS reading is pretty flimsy. There's no cumulative recording like the FM has. Its main purpose is programming.

    To that end, the most important thing is to make sure the parameters are right for your generator. The default is something like 18 Amps AC in, and unless you have a pretty big gen that will be way over the limit. The next important thing, for the same reason, is the charge Amps. This is also in AC terms, so you have to mentally convert it to the DC Amp equivalent you want. Otherwise you will need to program the various charging Voltage levels to what works best with your batteries. They should match the FM settings as closely as possible, of course. There are parameters for Bulk, Absorb (including time), Float, and Equalization (which is started manually).

    I suggest you download the manuals for this equipment and read it over and over so you get some idea what you're getting in to! :p
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question
    n1st wrote: »
    It looks like 48a is the default for generator input. Yeesh! I guess I'll have to buy the Mate. :cry:

    I plan on using the FX as a backup to my grid-fed system. So I'll have 2 inputs (manual switch):
    1) a house 20 amp circuit
    2) a 3kwh generator

    From reading the programming manual, am I correct in saying that I want to set Grid Input (non-mobile) at 20 amps and Gen Input at 3 amps, and the rest of the settings can pretty much be the same (upper/lower volatage, etc.)? When the house power fails, and I start the gen/flip the input to the generator, I need to remember to change the Input Select from ? to "Master Gen" on the Mate?

    What does the FX do if I try to draw more than the AC limits... limit the draw from the AC input circuit and increase the draw from the battery bank?

    Working backwards ....

    If the generator or generator spec becomes over-loaded the FX will drop the AC input and switch loads to battery. Trouble is, it will then sense the AC input presence and reconnect. Then it will be over-loaded and drop out again. Then .... Get it? Very important to balance the loads/charging with the available AC in.

    Are you looking at a grid-tie system here, or just the standard FX? If you're not planning on selling back to the utility there's no reason to go with a GTFX.

    I'd try to balance the AC input so that you can use either grid or generator interchangeably. This will largely be dependent on what the 120 VAC current output is limited to. Usually 15 Amps on a 3kW gen. You should actually program the maximum input to be less than this, and set the AC charge Amps so that they are slightly under the max for charging your bank size. If the loads draw too much your going to have that cycling problem I mentioned.

    The FX has one AC in, and if you use a manual transfer switch you can power it either from the grid or from the gen. Another option is to use the gen to run a separate battery charger tied directly to the batteries.

    There's so many options to this it's hard to give definitive answers. It would all depend on your exact set-up.
    I'd suggest you start by determining what you need to run in the event of a power outage, and plan for supplying that. The hours you need to run it will determine your battery bank size, depending on your 'charging window'. Remember that emergency power is usually required during storms when there's not going to be much sun for re-charging. I often recommend that people forgo the panels in such an application, and use the gen to charge during daylight and the batteries for 'quiet power' at night.
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  • RandomJoe
    RandomJoe Solar Expert Posts: 472 ✭✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    If you can find someone who already has a Mate and will let you use it for a bit (or maybe someplace that would rent one?) it isn't necessary to keep the Mate full-time, just use it to configure the inverter as you want.

    And yes, the data retrieved from the inverter is very poor. In fact, I'd say the AC amps readings are completely useless and the AC voltage measurements aren't much better than rough estimates... (Based on what I get from my FX.) To get anything of real value you would need the Flexnet DC, which is rather pricey too. And, of course, a hub!

    The Mate does have a serial port, and you can connect to a computer to pull data out. Can't do much else, though - only commands it'll accept from a computer is drop/use and aux on/off. No programming from a computer.

    But with a hub and both FX and FM connected, you could log everything to a computer if desired. That's what I do (I also have the FN-DC) and it's pretty nifty seeing things work - if you're into that sort of thing! :)

    The hub uses serial communications, and only uses CAT5 cables for convenience. They send power and serial signal over the wires.
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  • n1st
    n1st Solar Expert Posts: 77 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    No, it's not a grid tied FX. By Grid fed, I just meant that when the grid is feeding my house, I plan to have it feeding the FX for battery charging. Although the FX only has 1 AC input, I was under the impression from reading the programming manual, that there are two AC input modes (Gen and Grid), and that you could have a set of parameters for each... so I was thinking I'd have a 3amp input max for "gen" mode and 20amp input max for house-supplied power to the FX. Am I misunderstanding this and there are not 2 programming modes?

    Joe - yes, that'd be terrific if I could borrow a mate... anyone out there live in the Hartford, CT/ Springfield, Ma area willing to lend a mate? :D
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    You are correct about the two AC input choices. If you have a MATE II (for marine use) the selections are GEN and CORD; the idea being you might draw AC either from a generator or from a shore cord!

    But you have to have the mate to switch between the two, so just borrowing one won't help you there. I agree with you that it would be better to be able to make use of the utility AC for higher charge capacity. Hmm, buy a bigger gen? :confused:

    Having to get a MATE and other such related hardware is the biggest flaw with the Outback system. Okay, maybe it's the price. If all together it didn't cost so much we wouldn't mind having to buy it!
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  • n1st
    n1st Solar Expert Posts: 77 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    I was under the impression that the mate and mate2 were identical except the first is surface mount. Is this incorrect - the flush mount is the only one with the 2 AC (gen vs. cord) feature?

    Regarding grounding the Fx and batteries, can the batteries (-) be grounded via the ground tab on the FX by connecting to the ground wire of my home AC feed circuit. I understand there there should only be 1 ground, and I'd like that to be the home AC ground (via my main circuit board panel). Is the "box lug" on the top of the FX connected to the AC ground? My thought is to install a short piece of wire between the battery - connector on the FX to the box lug ground. I'm hoping this will connect to the AC ground and back to my (home AC main) panel ground.

    Thanks for your help by answering all these questions.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    Things keep changing! There doesn't seem to be any MATE II (marine) anymore. I guess it wasn't necessary?
    The difference between the MATE and MATE2 seems to be just the mounting.

    I wish they'd stop changing things; old people like me can't handle it! :p

    There is a box lug on the FX for grounding the chassis. That's different from before too. The manual is a tad unclear (or my understanding is) but it looks like this is connected to the (-) DC and can be hooked to the AC ground directly - although probably not at the AC ground contact on the Inverter. I'd run a separate wire to the ground stake.

    Mine, which has been in place for some time now, doesn't have this ground lug and there was a significant Voltage potential from (-) to AC ground, so it got a separate DC ground. This is probably the wrong way to do it, btw.

    But hey, all manufacturers could help by giving some real good wiring diagrams and stop ignoring the ground connections, which are often the trickiest part of wiring anything up.
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  • n1st
    n1st Solar Expert Posts: 77 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
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    Re: Outback mate & hub question

    Ok, thanks again for the help.
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