getting 220v?

VanDeusen
VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
To my understanding, I need 2 inverters to be stacked to get 220v is that correct and if so what do you think of these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/STACKABLE-POWER-...item4cee72e1aa

NOT PROMOTING THESE JUST TRYING TO SEE IF THESE WILL WORK. THANX
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: getting 220v?

    If you want 240 VAC buy a Xantrex XW inverter capable of it. That is the best option. Stacking inverters can be a troublesome pain-in-the-anatomy.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,641 admin
    #3
    Re: getting 220v?

    Your link does not work... All the Stackable Power inverters I saw only "stack" in parallel--for additional power... Not in series for additional voltage.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: getting 220v?

    HERE IS THE LISTING WHICH WORKS.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/STACKABLE-POWER-INVERTER-2500-5000-W-24V-DC-TO-120V-AC_W0QQitemZ390175728441QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad8492339

    THANK YOU AGAIN
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  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: getting 220v?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    If you want 240 VAC buy a Xantrex XW inverter capable of it. That is the best option. Stacking inverters can be a troublesome pain-in-the-anatomy.

    WHEN YOU HAVE 3 220V APPLIANCES THAT NEED TO BE OFFGIRD I WAS TOLD THAT OOPS you would need to stack 2 110v inverters together. These that I am showing have a stacking option that just plugs into each other. AS far as the xw that is 110v right? but that still will be able to handle 220v?

    thanx
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: getting 220v?

    XW output is 120/240 VAC:

    http://store.solar-electric.com/nexaxwseinan.html
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,641 admin
    #7
    Re: getting 220v?

    From your EBay link:
    Units link in PARALLEL ONLY on the AC side, NOT in series. 2 120v inverters CANNOT be wired into 240V output!
    So, these particular units cannot be stacked into 240 VAC...

    Also note this "odd" requirement for power sequencing. Not sure what would happen if master is turned on first, then slaves or if all where turned on together at once:
    "Slave" units must be powered on before the "master" is powered on

    The Xantrex XW is one of the few Hybrid inverters (Grid Tied/Off Grid capable) that actually outputs 120/240 VAC 60 Hz split phase power (common to homes in North America) without any additional hardware/wiring.

    As I recall, it will output upwards of 75% of its name plate power into a single 120 VAC circuit or 100% of rated power into a pair of 120 VAC or 240 VAC circuits.

    Magnum Energy also has sine wave output inverters that are capable of 120/240 VAC split phase operation.
    The MS-AE Series Inverter/Charger from Magnum Energy is a pure sinewave inverter designed specifically for the most demanding renewable energy applications. The unique design of the MS-AE Series can provide 120 and 240 volts AC output in one unit, eliminating the need to stack two units together to get 240 volts.

    Please note, these are very complex units and you need to read the specifications/manual very closely to ensure that you are using them properly.

    Also, it is possible that there are some limitations (like you may need a 240 VAC generator to operate the internal battery charger--I don't know, I have not gone through the manuals in detail).
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: getting 220v?
    3 220V APPLIANCES THAT NEED TO BE OFFGIRD
    What 3 appliances? I suspect you are talking about resistance heating, RESISTANCE HEAT and off-grid DO NOT go together!
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  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: getting 220v?
    audredger wrote: »
    What 3 appliances? I suspect you are talking about resistance heating, RESISTANCE HEAT and off-grid DO NOT go together!

    Stove, Dryer, Water on demand (water heater)

    Do you have another suggustion for maybe bypassing these?
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  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    #10
    Re: getting 220v?

    Propane or natural gas if available ... "rule" is, if you want heat, burn something!

    Gas stove, Gas tankless water heater, Gas dryer

    It will be much less expensive to replace these with gas than to buy panels & batteries to feed them!

    How is the house heated?
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  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: getting 220v?
    VanDeusen wrote: »
    Stove, Dryer, Water on demand (water heater)

    Do you have another suggustion for maybe bypassing these?

    I currently have a wood burning furnace installed. LOL I just need to bypass the water heater and the stove. The dryer I can always hang cloths outside if that is the best idea. Heck, they got those solar dry cloths lines which may work.
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  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: getting 220v?
    audredger wrote: »
    Propane or natural gas if available ... "rule" is, if you want heat, burn something!

    Gas stove, Gas tankless water heater, Gas dryer

    It will be much less expensive to replace these with gas than to buy panels & batteries to feed them!

    How is the house heated?

    as far as the gas.. the electric company controls that too here and they charge DOUBLE then the national average and are under investigation.
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  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: getting 220v?

    If not natural gas then propane! You can shop around and even haul it yourself!
    Local company want $3.75 a gallon delivered, 100 gal minimum. I use 10 gal / 40# "RV" tanks and buy it in town for $1.50 - $1.75 a gal. A 10 gal tank lasts me ~ a month. (Tank less water heater & gas range) Off grid electricity costs ~ $1.00+ a KWh. If I were to try and enlarge my system to accommodate an electric range and electric water heater, I would have to invest at least another $30,000 to $40,000 and then, that might not cover it! $17.50 a month for propane vs $1.00+ a KWh?

    The costs of off grid don't stop after the panels, charge controllers and inverters are paid for; the batteries will be shot in 5-7 years, 10 years max. That is if you take care of them! Solar electricity is not cheap!!!

    I know you hate your local electric company and don't want to give them one red cent but, lets do some math. How many KW h's of 220 v do you use a month? Where are you located? Let's figure out how much you need to invest to go off grid with your 220 v loads. We can then compare that against the costs of a new propane stove & water heater. Once you see the figures I think you will understand.
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  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: getting 220v?
    audredger wrote: »
    If not natural gas then propane! You can shop around and even haul it yourself!
    Local company want $3.75 a gallon delivered, 100 gal minimum. I use 10 gal / 40# "RV" tanks and buy it in town for $1.50 - $1.75 a gal. A 10 gal tank lasts me ~ a month. (Tank less water heater & gas range) Off grid electricity costs ~ $1.00+ a KWh. If I were to try and enlarge my system to accommodate an electric range and electric water heater, I would have to invest at least another $30,000 to $40,000 and then, that might not cover it! $17.50 a month for propane vs $1.00+ a KWh?

    The costs of off grid don't stop after the panels, charge controllers and inverters are paid for; the batteries will be shot in 5-7 years, 10 years max. That is if you take care of them! Solar electricity is not cheap!!!

    I know you hate your local electric company and don't want to give them one red cent but, lets do some math. How many KW h's of 220 v do you use a month? Where are you located? Let's figure out how much you need to invest to go off grid with your 220 v loads. We can then compare that against the costs of a new propane stove & water heater. Once you see the figures I think you will understand.

    I think you hit a great point. I think PROPANE is the way to go as long as its NOT the local crooks. Thanx for the advise.
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  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: getting 220v?

    Something to think about: I looked up an electric on demand water heater; it used 80 amps @ 240 volts. If, you only used it for 15 minutes a day, that would be 4800 watt hours a day.

    Using 4.9 hours of sun a day and a fixed array, you would need:
    10 120 watt panels @ ~ $3.00 a watt = $3,000
    1 60 amp charge controller @ ~$529
    6 CR 395 batteries @ ~ $285 = $1,710
    10 outback 2012 inverters @ ~$2,000 = $20,000

    For a total of ~$25,239 Not including wire, fuses, electrical boxes, etc.

    THAT is to run JUST THAT WATER HEATER ALONE!!! For 15 minutes a day off grid!!
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  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: getting 220v?
    audredger wrote: »
    Something to think about: I looked up an electric on demand water heater; it used 80 amps @ 240 volts. If, you only used it for 15 minutes a day, that would be 4800 watt hours a day.

    Using 4.9 hours of sun a day and a fixed array, you would need:
    10 120 watt panels @ ~ $3.00 a watt = $3,000
    1 60 amp charge controller @ ~$529
    6 CR 395 batteries @ ~ $285 = $1,710
    10 outback 2012 inverters @ ~$2,000 = $20,000

    For a total of ~$25,239 Not including wire, fuses, electrical boxes, etc.

    THAT is to run JUST THAT WATER HEATER ALONE!!! For 15 minutes a day off grid!!

    HHmm Propane it is.. LOL Thank you for the math. It sure opened more eyes then mine prob.
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: getting 220v?

    I was looking at one of the first post where you were complaining that you thought 11cents a KW was way too high. It is about the same here with first energy in NW pa. I don,t think your rate is too much out of line. You are spending many times the bucks to avoid paying the electric co. Unless you decide to avoid the electric co all together it might be more economically to get 220 from the electric co and get your 110 with your off grid solar system. Some electric co. give you a break in the KW price for water heating. Around here they do but you have to have an 80 gal waterheater. Also you said you are heating with wood. Do you have the outside woodstove that heats water? I started to put an outside woodstove in till I got a phonecall that the gas co was going to drill me a well. Lucky me, sold the stove and hooked up the gaswell to my propane furnace. so the woodstove also heats your water during the heating season and you can use the electric waterheater in the summer season. If you are interested in how this works Google central boiler. I do share your desire to be as independent from the electric co as much as possible but grid tie is the way to go if you can.
    S:Dlarvic
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: getting 220v?

    Just to reinforce the others' opinions;

    Electric on-demand water heaters are the worst waste of energy ever.
    $0.11/kW/hr is only a couple cents more than we pay from BC Hydro, which has the cheapest rates possibly anywhere in the world. If you were in Hawaii, you'd be paying five times that. :cry:

    Putting in propane to take away the heating loads will do more for saving you money than any solar array ever could. Better for cooking too! :D
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: getting 220v?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Just to reinforce the others' opinions;

    Electric on-demand water heaters are the worst waste of energy ever.
    $0.11/kW/hr is only a couple cents more than we pay from BC Hydro, which has the cheapest rates possibly anywhere in the world. If you were in Hawaii, you'd be paying five times that. :cry:

    Putting in propane to take away the heating loads will do more for saving you money than any solar array ever could. Better for cooking too! :D
    I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn,t talking about on demand waterheater!!! I was posting about 80 gal water heater that electric co chooses when you get the electric for a little over 4 cents a kw.
    I agree with you that on demand electric water heaters are a big energy waste. What is wrong with an 80 gal. electric waterheater under certain circumstances? I think the electric co here only charges you about half rate for waterheating if you get an 80 gal.tank and let them put it on its own meter where they can turn it on and off by remote control from power co. A couple of people I know have outside wood furnaces and they heat the water during heating season and get no bill during those months. We have about 6 or 7 months of heating season here. I have an on demand ng waterheater that I am planning on replacing the electric waterheater with. Just need to get a plumber in here to do some gasline plumbing. S:Dlarvic
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: getting 220v?
    solarvic wrote: »
    I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn,t talking about on demand waterheater!!! I was posting about 80 gal water heater that electric co chooses when you get the electric for a little over 4 cents a kw.
    I agree with you that on demand electric water heaters are a big energy waste. What is wrong with an 80 gal. electric waterheater under certain circumstances? I think the electric co here only charges you about half rate for waterheating if you get an 80 gal.tank and let them put it on its own meter where they can turn it on and off by remote control from power co. A couple of people I know have outside wood furnaces and they heat the water during heating season and get no bill during those months. We have about 6 or 7 months of heating season here. I have an on demand ng waterheater that I am planning on replacing the electric waterheater with. Just need to get a plumber in here to do some gasline plumbing. S:Dlarvic

    No, just being a bit disjointed in thoughts; Post #9 VanDeusen mentions an on-demand water heater as one of his 240 VAC loads.

    There's been quite the round table discussion about water heating efficiency on this forum. The short version is that natural gas/propane is nearly always cheaper than the same type of heater using electric and that on demand is only a savings for low volume usage. Sometimes a big tank full of hot water is what is needed, and since the demand-type heaters actually use more energy for a given volume they are not a good choice for high volume applications.

    Your system, where the utility controls when to heat the water, is not available everywhere but certainly a cost-effective alternative if it is.

    And then there's solar water heaters. Another viable solution to high energy costs, which has been discussed in many posts on this forum.
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