Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

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  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #62
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

    Seems fine to me - solar and pumped storage hydro. At least for SoCal which has lots of sun and is surrounded by mountains.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #63
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

    there are losses to any energy storage, but evaporation is something different as a loss of energy. also just the pumping of it up there uses so many watts of power that upon sending it back down will be nowhere near what it took in sending it up.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #64
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?
    niel wrote: »
    there are losses to any energy storage, but evaporation is something different as a loss of energy. also just the pumping of it up there uses so many watts of power that upon sending it back down will be nowhere near what it took in sending it up.

    Right as usual, Neil.

    The only way "hydro storage" can be deemed efficient is on a cost basis: if the total electricity used to pump the water up to storage is of significantly less retail value then the (lesser) amount generated by allowing the water to flow back (the friction losses are enormous). And it has to be weighed against the cost of 'firing up' another 'conventional fuel' plant.

    Electricity just doesn't store well, no matter how you do it. The two biggest problems with off-grid systems are the inefficiency of the PV's and the batteries. If they could be improved to approach the 90+% rate of modern inverters we'd have more viable generation and storage.

    Biggest 'green' problem there is: fossil fuels are cheap sources of dense energy.
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  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #65
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?
    niel wrote: »
    there are losses to any energy storage, but evaporation is something different as a loss of energy. also just the pumping of it up there uses so many watts of power that upon sending it back down will be nowhere near what it took in sending it up.

    85% is nowhere near?

    i must say i'm sorry as my reply went into your post accidentally when i hit the wrong button. it is as it was.
    niel
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #66
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?
    newenergy wrote: »
    85% is nowhere near?

    i must say i'm sorry as my reply went into your post accidentally when i hit the wrong button. it is as it was.
    niel


    you will not get an overall 85% efficiency in taking the original electric energy to be used in a pump to push the water uphill and then gravity fed back down to be regenerated as even hydro generators also will not reap anywhere near 100% efficiency in converting the energy of the water flowing downhill, let alone a pump working that well efficiency wise too. add to that evaporation. this is at least 2 points of energy conversion plus losses due to evaporation and pipe resistances, up and down.
    as inefficient as it is, it still remains as one of the best ways to store said large scale utility power.
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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #67
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

    Interesting reading.

    This is probably way out there, but I've always wondered if an off grid system could produce and store hydrogen with its excess production capacity through electrolysis?

    Water is plentiful and the system's excess electricty could produce hydrogen, pump it into a holding tank to heat a home?

    I know it's a reach but maybe another way to store what isn't used. You can tell I'm no engineer! Don't worry, you can flunk me, I have a thick skin.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #68
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

    The problem with hydrogen today is there is no cost effective way to make the stuff that does not start with hydrocarbons. You would need far more electric power than practical.

    You read about people all excited on various green sites due to 'breakthroughs' but anything commercial is 10 to 20 years or more away.

    Next would be the storage problem - not practical in your backyard or garage.

    The new generations of batteries maybe?
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  • garlmike
    garlmike Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭
    #69
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

    Bump

    CAES has proven to work, in some area only

    The new battery: http://sadoway.mit.edu/research/liquid-metal-batteries

    And many others http://www.americanvanadium.com/grid-energy-power-storage.php ,MOLTEN SALT BATTERY:http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2012/0115002.html

    And the last roar or rant: Keshe Free Energy http://soundofheart.org/galacticfreepress/content/keshe-free-energy-technology-replications-galore
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #70
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

    Rule #1: beware of anyone or any site that uses the term "free energy" unless they are saying "there's no such thing as".

    The American Vanadium people were (are?) actually forum members here. Not much happened as a result. Apparently the product is not suitable for small-scale systems and not yet viable for large ones either.
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  • garlmike
    garlmike Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭
    #71
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

    Yes the "free energy" is just for entertainment purpose.
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  • mikeo
    mikeo Solar Expert Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
    #72
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?
    Mangas wrote: »
    Interesting reading.

    This is probably way out there, but I've always wondered if an off grid system could produce and store hydrogen with its excess production capacity through electrolysis?

    Beside taking large amount of energy to separate out hydrogen from water, it is nearly impossible to store long term. The hydrogen molecule is so small, it just goes through the walls of any storage container. One way to slow down this process involves super cooling, also an energy intensive process. Not something I would want to try at home
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #73
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?

    http://www.redflow.com.au/redflow_ZBM

    This is a production unit in Australia, not available in North America...
     
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  • Fatawan
    Fatawan Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭✭
    #74
    Re: Ideas on more efficient energy storage?
    mikeo wrote: »
    Beside taking large amount of energy to separate out hydrogen from water, it is nearly impossible to store long term. The hydrogen molecule is so small, it just goes through the walls of any storage container. One way to slow down this process involves super cooling, also an energy intensive process. Not something I would want to try at home

    Not true at all. I think hydrogen via electrolysis is a very viable method to store RE power. There are more and more fuel cell units that can split water into hydrogen and oxygen, compress it, and store it, then reverse and use it as fuel when needed. This guy has been running his home with this sort of system for years http://energy.aol.com/2011/08/13/completely-off-the-grid/ . Professor Cliff Ricketts at MTSU has been running a similar system. Many companies working in this space, and it shows promise as a good storage method for cheap solar. Look at ProtonOnSite, Hydrogenics, stc.
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  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    #75
    It's a good time to revive this old thread.

    We need new ways of storing energy on the utility scale. Check the link below for a very interesting possibility.

    https://www.gravitypower.net/


    Basically you dig a huge shaft (500m deep) then dig out a core (another 500m) to serve as a piston. Fill it with water and use a pump to lift the piston to store energy, let the piston drop to drive the hydrogenerator.

    In theory gigawatts can be safely stored on a few acres with no emissions, no toxics, using off-the-shelf technologies. It requires a huge up front investment but then should be relatively cheap to operate.
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