SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

frserapheim
frserapheim Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15 ✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
Hoping that someone can help out.

A friend has a Trace SW3048E 230 v/ 50Hz inverter. He is having problems running an AEG frontloader washing machine (AEG OKO_Lavamat Jubiline 13.50 update). To get the washing machine to work at all he has to place a large load on the inverter (in his case a resistive load -space heater of 1 kw or so.)

Someone mentioned to us that this is because of the modified sine wave of the inverter. Apparantly the resistive load "smooths out" some of the steps in the mod sign giving the washing machine the ability to run. They also mentioned that installing a 50 micro-farad, 380V, non-polarized run capacitor and putting in parallel with the washing machine on the Hot and Neutral legs of the circuit would fix the problem. Apparently the capacitor will smooth out the wave form of the inverter so the resistive load will no longer be needed.

Just wondering if anyone else has had similar problems with the SW or other mod sine inverter and if they have fixed this problem by installing a run capacitor. Is this solution valid.

We have opened up the washing machine and it has a start capacitor (from the little that we know) on the Hot and Neutral legs before continuing with the rest of the wiring. The start capacitor (?) is 0.47 mF, 16 A, 50Hz, 275 Volt). Do we simply place the run capacitor in parallel before the start capacitor? Is there anything else that we should know/ look out for?

Hoping someone can help us out. Only know enough to be dangerous :D

thanks
frserapheim
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #2
    Re: SW3048E and AEG washing machine that wont work

    We need more accurate details on the inverter The euro spec SW inverter was a SW3024E 50 hz. It is classed as a Puresine Wave Inverter not modified, hence the SW in its model name.

    Whilst it isnt the best true sinewave out there in its day it was very good.I think the design is over 10 years old. I have a SW3024E and have no problems running any equipment including washing machines.

    So first we need to know the correct model of the Trace Xantrex Unit you
    have.

    Nigel
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  • frserapheim
    frserapheim Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15 ✭
    #3
    Re: SW3048E and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Sorry Nigel your quite right.

    The inverter is a friends and Im simply the messanger :-). The inverter is a SW3048E from what I remember.

    Thanks.

    (I have edited the inverter id in the original post also.)
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  • Brock
    Brock Solar Expert Posts: 639 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: SW3048E and AEG washing machine that wont work

    The inverter isn't going in to sleep mode is it? Seems really strange since I haven't found anything our old SW's wouldn't run.
    3kw solar PV, 4 LiFePO4 100a, xw 6048, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Tesla 3, Leaf, Volt, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: SW3048E and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Knowing the power specs on the washing machine would help too.
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: SW3048E and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Well Im not a Clever Trevor but I agree with Brock on the SW, however when I moved to Spain one piece of advice I took for off gridders was buy a simple bog basic washing machine, I did I have still have clean laundry.

    At least when my better half Cheryl is home. :blush:


    Couple of questions.

    How does the Washing Machine work from a generator ?

    I have a customer who has a posh dish washer and washing machine, they work brilliantly off a VFX3048E but throw a wabbler (duckfit) on a generator, any generator.

    Does he use a warm wash ie heated, Im led to believe that modern Automatics do one thing at a time, ie turn, heat , spin or pump if its an older machine that might be not so, sorry I can be of any more help, you need a Clever Trevor I think, good luck.

    Nigel
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  • frserapheim
    frserapheim Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15 ✭
    #7
    Re: SW3048E and AEG washing machine that wont work

    First off, thanks for the replies.

    Yes your quite right a simpler, mechanical washer would be best, but their getting harder to find these day new. The problem is if we can do anything about the one he has already got.

    The washer runs well from the large genset they have. Also the inverter is turned ON (not Search) so it should NOT be going into sleep mode. Unfortunately I could find any specs on the washer as its a German model. What sort of specs would we need to know other than 230 volt/ 50 hz? Perhaps the power rating? Ill see what I can get off the washing machine.

    They always wash on the hot cycle as far as I know.

    Note that the inverter DOES run the washer BUT ONLY when they have a large resistive load (1kw) turned on also. When the resistive load is not turned on the washer just wont start!

    This is why the run capacitor was suggested to us. In theory its suppose to smooth out the sine wave so the washer will recognise it.

    Just wondering if anyone out there has used this solution? Does it work and what should we look out for?

    Thanks again.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    On the meters screen of the SW check the frequency of the SW and then start the washer and watch the frequency and note any change when the unit cuts out.

    Now do the same thing with the generator and note any difference. And?

    I believe you have a bad SW that might have a bad FET. If you had a scope you could compare the waveform from generator to SW. The SW's will run a long time even with bad components. They usually feel warmer to the touch compared to a good one. The idle current is lower and can be measured. I have no idea of what differences may be in the export unit you have compared to this side of the pond.

    You could also have a really weird about power washing machine but I doubt it as Brock said the SW's run everthing really well.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • frserapheim
    frserapheim Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15 ✭
    #9
    Re: SW3024E and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Thanks again for the replies.

    Just wondering: wouldn't the fact that the washer works when loaded (they currently run the washer with a 1 kw resistive load running also) tend to suggest that the problem is actually the modified sine wave?:confused: I am pretty sure I remember reading in the SW manual that

    1) the modified sine wave could cause some problems and may not work some electronic equipment (pg 116 of the SW manual - Rev C Feb 2001)
    2) the heavier the inverter is loaded the more steps / cleaner sine wave (pg 57 of the SW manual).

    Again I was really wondering if it would hurt or not if we did connect a run capacitor on the washer and if anyone has tried this successfully. I tried contacting Xantrax but havent heard back yet. :cry:

    Thanks again.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    You should try it and let us know if it worked! As most folks have posted the SW runs electronic high efficiency washers very well. Your is the first time I have heard anyone having a problem like yours with an SW in almost 18 years offgrid.

    Did you try my previous suggestions?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    the sw was a pure sine wave or as close as you would need. the DR was the modified sine wave. I am with everyone else in thinking there is a few bad parts in the inverter i have yet to see anything that wouldn't run on the sw line
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #12
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Which gets into the issue that the SW line is long obsolete and is probably difficult to repair (no factory parts or service available, at least in the US, from what I have read).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • frserapheim
    frserapheim Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15 ✭
    #13
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Sorry for the late reply.

    The inverters frequency is 50 Htz. Unfortunately, he is unable to test what happens when he turns the washer at the moment because of house renovations where the washer is. I will get back to everyone once he has tested the frequency with the washer ASAP.

    Sorry I know I should have stated this from the outset but he actually has two inverters paralleled together :blush: . I do not know if this changes things. Could it be a problem with the parallel inverters?

    If there was a problem with the inverter parts wouldn't this also show up when other loads are on the system? Again, the problem only occurs when the inverter is not loaded. The washer runs fine as soon as a space heater (1 kw or so) is turned on. Sorry to keep on restating this but it just seems too much of a coincidence. Could it be the frequency would be better with a larger load? :confused:

    Thanks again.
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Could you temporarily remove the paralleling kit and turn one inverter and try the washer. then turn that inverter off and try the second one. this would eliminate the bad inverter idea if it wont run on either inverter.
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  • solorone
    solorone Solar Expert Posts: 257 ✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    I am jumping in here late, but it sounds like the batteries are not giving up enough power for the loads. Have you monitored screen 4 and watched the voltage when you turn on the 1 KW inductive load, just wondering if the battery V. are falling, this will cause the Hertz to crash. I have been running trace units since they made the first one, and other than one going up in flames, (my problem, you do not let a gen set run out of gas while charging, voltage surge) I have had no problems.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #16
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Actually, the 1kW load is resistive (electric heater).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work
    BB. wrote: »
    Which gets into the issue that the SW line is long obsolete and is probably difficult to repair (no factory parts or service available, at least in the US, from what I have read).

    -Bill


    Bill,
    The Inverter Doctor in Talent Oregon 877 498 6527 has parts and does service just about all major inverter/chargers that were made in significant numbers. They will cannibalize if you have deep pockets.

    And yea, they are good!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Actually, the batteries may be the problem:

    The sudden induction load could draw them down 'low' causing improper inverter output momentarily - enough to 'confuse' the washer. Putting the heavy resistive load on might draw them down to a 'stable' point; the inverter puts out 'proper' power and the washer is able to start.

    Then again, that might not be the problem and maybe the ol' SW is giving up for good.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Actually, the batteries may be the problem:

    The sudden induction load could draw them down 'low' causing improper inverter output momentarily - enough to 'confuse' the washer. Putting the heavy resistive load on might draw them down to a 'stable' point; the inverter puts out 'proper' power and the washer is able to start.

    Then again, that might not be the problem and maybe the ol' SW is giving up for good.

    The problem with your theory is there is alot less of a "sudden induction load"
    with a high efficiency washer than with the old brute force type washers. Even though the new high efficiency units really spin-up, they do not cause surges like the old ones!

    Since the OP has now stated there are 2 SW units maybe he can shine more light on the suggestions already posed.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: SW3048E and AEG washing machine that wont work
    frserapheim wrote: »
    Hoping that someone can help out.

    A friend has a Trace SW3048E 230 v/ 50Hz inverter. He is having problems running an AEG frontloader washing machine (AEG OKO_Lavamat Jubiline 13.50 update). To get the washing machine to work at all he has to place a large load on the inverter (in his case a resistive load -space heater of 1 kw or so.)

    Someone mentioned to us that this is because of the modified sine wave of the inverter. Apparantly the resistive load "smooths out" some of the steps in the mod sign giving the washing machine the ability to run. They also mentioned that installing a 50 micro-farad, 380V, non-polarized run capacitor and putting in parallel with the washing machine on the Hot and Neutral legs of the circuit would fix the problem. Apparently the capacitor will smooth out the wave form of the inverter so the resistive load will no longer be needed.

    Just wondering if anyone else has had similar problems with the SW or other mod sine inverter and if they have fixed this problem by installing a run capacitor. Is this solution valid.

    We have opened up the washing machine and it has a start capacitor (from the little that we know) on the Hot and Neutral legs before continuing with the rest of the wiring. The start capacitor (?) is 0.47 mF, 16 A, 50Hz, 275 Volt). Do we simply place the run capacitor in parallel before the start capacitor? Is there anything else that we should know/ look out for?

    Hoping someone can help us out. Only know enough to be dangerous :D

    thanks
    frserapheim



    Yes-Sir-Ree ! This is pretty much the way it is sometimes...
    Once in a while, a load will come up that is sensitive to the steps in the SW waveform... Clocks and things like that. The SW inverter is sort of a Modified-Modified-Modified square wave inverter, in that it is actually 3 MSW inverters, designed and connected in such a way as to make a pretty good approximation of a real sine wave, but leaves some small quantized steps.

    There really is no such thing as a "true sine wave" inverter in real life... A true sine wave is virtually only accomplished by an equation like, Vmax X sin(2XpiXfXt)

    The reason the 1KW resistive load helps is that it allows the stray inductances to filter the high frequencies from those steps more. I have seen additional loads fix problems like this many times in the past.

    The capacitor can also help, or reduce the need for a load. Or, maybe reduce the amount of load needed to make the washing machine work... I would suggest adding the capacitor electrically as close to the washing machine as possible. In addition, try an extension cord in between the inverter and machine to add a bit of resistance, which may help with the capacitor's filtering. 50 feet or so of cable may be enough

    Having said all this, there ~IS~, I suppose, as was mentioned earlier, the possibility that one of the SW inverter's sections is defective. I tend to think not though, simply because that adding that 1KW load seems to make it all work again. I wouldn't think it would come up and work that easily if it were broken, but, maybe.

    I am kind of puzzled by the use of "neutral" here though. Is there really a neutral in your 230V, 50Hz system ?


    boB
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  • frserapheim
    frserapheim Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15 ✭
    #21
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    boB and others... thanks for the replies.

    boB -
    I do not know if there is really a Neutral out. Thats what the AC wiring section in the manual calls it though :D.

    Also , do the specs of the capacitor (50 micro-farad, 380V, non-polarized run capacitor) sound ok? And if they are ok, do you know if such an install is safe on the washer and inverter? I have read elsewhere that the capacitor may place some small load on the inverter depending on where its wired but were really just more concerned about doing damage to the equipment.

    Thanks again,
    frserapheim
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  • peterako
    peterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    #22
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Sorry for kicking in late.
    The problem is your freq. / speed controller in the wash mach. it is to sensitive :grr.
    the fact that you use a double parallel inverter setup makes it worse, you have a master slave following between the inverters so if there is a steady load one is master and slave follows perfect.

    the solutions are.
    1. replace inverter for a proper one ( i am using a struder 48V 8 KVA piek 16 KVA, i am even welding using these inverter ;) )
    2. use a generator slow speed diesel to run when you want to wash.:confused: a high speed gasoline generator will give the same problem.

    Greetings from greece
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work
    frserapheim wrote: »
    Also , do the specs of the capacitor (50 micro-farad, 380V, non-polarized run capacitor) sound ok? And if they are ok, do you know if such an install is safe on the washer and inverter?

    Thanks again,
    frserapheim

    The capacitor is safe to use, (for the inverter and washer), and yes, it does add some current draw to the system, but does not consume actual "power" (Watts) except for some wire losses in the system (I^R losses)... Just make sure it's high enough voltage so it doesn't blow up. And, a motor run capactor that works for 230VAC should be fine.

    I'd try it at least. If it doesn't work, then you might want to look for a better inverter, as the previous posting suggests. The SW was great in its time, but there are better inverters out there now. But you can save a bundle on your system if the capacitor works.

    Just in case the capacitor you choose isn't high enough voltage, place it behind the washer or something so if it explodes, you don't get any shrapnel in your eyes.

    That last statement is not meant to scare you.... It's just a "just in case", precautionary thing. :D

    boB
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  • solorone
    solorone Solar Expert Posts: 257 ✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work
    boB wrote: »
    Th

    I'd try it at least. If it doesn't work, then you might want to look for a better inverter, as the previous posting suggests. The SW was great in its time, but there are better inverters out there now.

    boB

    I have been out of the loop for awhile, what is wrong with the SW inverters? I am running a 4024, just seems to keep on trucking, bought one of thje first ones Trace made, never gives me any trouble. Not starting a debate here or hijacking the OPs thread, justing looking for some input that the OP can share.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #25
    Re: SW3048E and AEG washing machine that wont work
    boB wrote: »
    I am kind of puzzled by the use of "neutral" here though. Is there really a neutral in your 230V, 50Hz system ?
    boB

    Many 200+ Volt AC receptacles have a neutral connection in addition to the two hot lines and a ground. Whether or not it gets used is purely device specific.

    I wondered too if the paralleled SW's might need a "wake up call" to activate the second unit which the washer can't give but the heater can. But that would mean there'd need to be a lot of other load to tax the primary inverter to the point where the secondary one was necessary, wouldn't it? Really one 4kW inverter should be enough for just about any washing machine! :p
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: SW3048E and AEG washing machine that wont work
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Many 200+ Volt AC receptacles have a neutral connection in addition to the two hot lines and a ground. Whether or not it gets used is purely device specific.

    I wonder :p

    Op said he heard that putting a cap from line to neutral might fix the problem.
    This is a 230V, 50Hz inverter. I would think he would put the cap across the 230VAC line itself. Is this a 120-240VAC washer ?? And, are these inverters paralleled or are they connected to give 120-240VAC with a center tap ?

    So lies my cornfusion. :D
    boB
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  • frserapheim
    frserapheim Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15 ✭
    #27
    Re: SW3024E and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Thanks to all for the responces...

    The inverters are actually SW3024Es 50 hz 230v. They are paralleled as master / slave to provide 6 kilowatts. Sorry for the confusion, I had made a typo in my original post in the title typing SW4024 instead of SW3024E :blush:- unfortunately I edited the title as soon as I realized the mistake but for some reason all replies are coming up with the old title. (Again the inverter and the washer is a friends - Im only the messanger :-))

    The washer is 50 hz, 230 vAC. I was planning on placing the cap as close as possible to the washer - most probably within the case before the washers own start capacitor. The line from the inverter to the washer is Hot Out, Neutral (or whatever it is), Ground. I was planning on placing the Capacitor on Hot Out and Neutral. Sounds ok?

    Thanks
    frserapheim
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #28
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    Yeah, boB, I was getting confused too. Natural state at my age.

    So in this configuration we have a standard 3-prong 230V connector, right? In that case you technically have two "Hot" wires (across which is 230V AC full sine) and a ground. The additional cap would go across the two "Hot" connectors.

    I wonder where the "Neutral" reference comes from? Maybe the washer is dual voltage?
    And what happens if you shut down the "slave" inverter and just try to start the washer off one?

    As you can tell by all the replies from everyone here trying to help, the blasted thing should work! :grr
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  • peterako
    peterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    #29
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    one more point , to have a Neutral it must be on one point being connected to ground but only one point , or generator or inverter ( master) or main fuse board. only then you have 230 v L.N.Pe otherwise you have 230V L.L.Pe (floating).

    it both works for lights etc. but if in your washer there is a filter / capicitor on the power input a modern one referring as well to ground and you are floating. that can be a problem .??????

    Greetings from Greece
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #30
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work

    European spec 230v 50 hz inverters have one live terminal out one neutral terminal out and earth, I gather the US is different.
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #31
    Re: SW4024 and AEG washing machine that wont work
    nigtomdaw wrote: »
    European spec 230v 50 hz inverters have one live terminal out one neutral terminal out and earth, I gather the US is different.

    Right Just swap numbers... 120VAC <<--->>> 230VAC
    and

    60Hz <<--->> 50Hz

    Makes it simpler to understand that way, for me anyway.
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