Designing for Cooling

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #32
    Re: Designing for Cooling
    Solar Guppy wrote: »
    So he puts down a technology he can't provide? seems the motivation, not build the house to the requirements you want.

    SIP is a very very good way to build homes ... find a builder that has experience, Its all about planning with SIP, the people standing around is a contractor issue and nothing to do with SIP.

    I agree. Considering that plumbers & electricians have for years had no qualms about hacking structural supports to bits to run their pipes and wires I shouldn't think SIPs would present any obstacle to them. Although when you cut a 4" waste pipe hole in a SIP the structure isn't compromised the way it is when you cut through a 2x8.

    Just don't build out of logs. Log construction advantages are vastly over-rated. Trust me.
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  • Mike 870
    Mike 870 Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    Yea, I took what he said with a grain of salt. It doesn't really matter because I'm going to be doing almost everything myself anyway. That's why I was trying to find alternative ways to get a tight building envelope.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #34
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    It sounds like alot of rural areas where the locals do not know any better. If you do use stick construction there are some recent articles in home power on doing it cheaper and better. If you are in a rush to get it done the easiest is 2x6 with a 1 or 2 inch foam exterior under siding. It is a different world living in places where there is very little choice on how to complete a project. It is not like the big city where you can have your coffee and decide which Lowes or Home Depot you want to visit today is it?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Mike 870
    Mike 870 Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭✭✭
    #35
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    You are absolutely right dave. I'm 2 hours from a major city, which isn't bad, but makes it tough. In addition most larger trucks will not dare test my access road. It is a logging road and I am on top of a 1000 elevation hill. I bought my site for the view, and am worried about getting bigger trucks up there. I can get up easy enough in my pickup, but I may have to do major work to get a cement truck up there (reason for exploring piers). I really want a slab if I can get a truck up. Nevermind a flatbed truck that would deliver SIPS or something. Not complaining, because I knew all this ahead of time, but it will make things interesting, and fun.

    I think I have decided on a 16 by 28 footprint, stick framed with 10 ft 2 by 6's on 24 inch centers. I will have two bump outs to expand the space a little. I change my mind a lot though. I am a Home Power subscriber so I will have to re read those articles.

    I recently saw some pictures of white roofs with cedar siding, and I liked the way they looked. I was worried that I would be sacrificing aesthetics for green but after seeing those pictures, I feel better.

    I have started thinking about my power system.

    I have to design for weekend use.
    My loads will be
    well pump (360 ft depth is worst contingency)
    lighting
    laptop
    Coffee making
    microwave
    electric ignition of propane tankless water heater ( have heard the hydro ignitions are kinda bad?)
    clock/ignition of propane stove (unless I can somehow disconnect or get one without)
    radio

    Appliances I won't have are fridge, washer/dryer, dishwasher.

    I already have a honda eu6500is genny so that is a sunk cost.
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #36
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    Hi Mike
    Your list of things not to have...is this just a weekend getaway, you can pack perishables in via coolers, and laundry out for doing at home?

    Peerless Premier propane stoves are great. They have pizo electric ignition on the burners, and a pizo/lighting a pilot for the oven. Many modern gas stoves have nasty little elements that are on all the time the oven is on..bad for power consumption. If your power goes out, a match or bbq lighter will do just fine.

    Propane refrigerators are out of my experience. My 18cu foot Woods electric all fridge uses about 1/2kwh per day, and the electricity is ''free'' from the sun. (unless it's windy, or I have to run the genny)

    Ralph
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  • Mike 870
    Mike 870 Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭✭✭
    #37
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    Yes, just a weekend retreat. Although I do hope to retire there one day. I wouldn't have a well either except the wife says she will never ever go there if there is not running water and hot showers.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    Mike;

    I live at the end of a logging road. There's no trouble getting big trucks down a logging road: logging trucks are big! It's the part afterwards that causes trouble: you have to leave the landing and follow the skidder path. Going down the hill to the lake is easy. Getting back up it is sometimes a challenge for 4WD.

    We've got a premier propane stove with standing pilot lights. Not that bad on consumption. With that and the Bosch water heater we used roughly 20 lbs. per month. That includes doing laundry, btw. Electric ignition isn't a good idea in my opinion. You can't by-pass it without running into trouble: there's bound to be some sort of safety valve to shut the gas off if there's no electric present. Probably more complex than the old thermocouple.

    Our Bosch has "turbine ignition" - never had any trouble with it in 5 years. But it's "old style" and doesn't regulate the outgoing temp, just raises incoming by "X" degrees.

    Just added a microwave. The adventure is here: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=5624

    Coffee? Use the stove.

    Repeated investigations into propane vs. electric 'frige on this forum has drawn the conclusion that propane is better for short-stay use and electric for long-term.

    The well pump will be the biggest problem. 360 feet means submersible of at least 1 HP & 240 V. That will draw heavy even on a generator. But your Honda will handle it.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #39
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    Skip the well until you live there permanantly. Use rainwater off the steel roof. You may find that this is such a no-brainer that you skip the well. If you are downwind of a coal burning power plant you may not have a choice. All you need is 30 inches of rain on a garage roof of 690 sq. ft. and you have 13,000 gallons of water. It probably will taste better to your wife than what comes out of the ground.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #40
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    Keep you eye out for a Paloma PH series demand water heater. They went out of production last year. They come in three sizes, PH6-12-24. They are standing pilot units, but if you kill the pilot when not in use (within reason!) they are very efficient. My little PH-6 takes water out of the frozen lake and give me a whizz-bang shower! There are a few new ones (L/P) out there but they are getting hard to find. They are bullet proof and spares are very readily.

    As for fridges, if it is a seasonal cabin or weekend cabin, I would lean toward Propane. The more you use it, the better the equation becomes for conventional (high ef) fridges. A well designed and installed propane fridge set up , adding insulation to the cabinets, fans on the evaporators and condensers, they can be pretty darn efficient. They are also very reliable if taken care of. (My neighbour has one that has been burning continuously for more than 20 years, with only annual burner cleaning.

    Good luck,

    tony
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  • Mike 870
    Mike 870 Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭✭✭
    #41
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    Great Advice all

    Cariboocoot, I checked out the premier it looks good and when I get to that stage I will certianly consider it. Coffee on the stove is a no brainer, can't believe I didn't think of that. As far as the logging road goes, I said I'm down it, but I'm realy "up" it.

    Dave,
    It certianly makes sense to skip the well, but how do you keep the "cistern" from going funky. How do you pressurize? Most of the big coal fired plants in Ohio are East of me, on the Ohio River. I tried to find a map with no luck. My county does seem to have some of the worst air quality in the state.

    Icarus,
    I will keep my eye open for one of those units. I don't think I am going for a fridge. I just got back from a 3 night camping trip in West Virginia and my cooler kept everything fine for the duration. If I do go for a fridge I will do propane or a converted chest freezer ( I read the thread on the conversion). I read a blog about a guy in vermont who built a bump out in his kitchen and uses it as a fridge in the winter. Wish I could find it again.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #42
    Re: Designing for Cooling
    Mike 870 wrote: »
    Great Advice all


    Dave,
    It certainly makes sense to skip the well, but how do you keep the "cistern" from going funky. How do you pressurize? Most of the big coal fired plants in Ohio are East of me, on the Ohio River. I tried to find a map with no luck. My county does seem to have some of the worst air quality in the state.

    QUOTE]


    There are over 100 ways to screw up ground water and only a few ways to mess up rainwater. Dirty air will do it! You can save some rainwater and get it tested for around $30.

    A real cistern in the ground can last 5 years as long as it is sealed correctly. Most above ground tanks will last a few years if nothing is done. If you treat them with chlorine (especially when near empty) they are no problem. Not sure I understand what you mean by pressurize? A pump of course or gravity! You can also use ozone and shock any tank with 27% hydrogen peroxide for a reset back to healthy.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #43
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    "Cold room" - anybody else remember them? Separate "pantry" space or cupboard with a "chimney" that drafted air up from under the house and out to keep the room cooler than the rest of the house. Not exactly refrigeration, but under the right circumstances good for some things.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,615 admin
    #44
    Re: Designing for Cooling

    My 1930's build home had this for a couple kitchen cupboards. I made the choice to insulate the south facing wall (and double pane vinyl windows) instead. I think better insulation was a much better choice than trying to figure out how to preserve the "cooler".

    The whole home (before insulation) was drafty--and very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter (no wall insulation, wood frame single pane windows, etc.).

    Much better now (very little temperature change during the day--especially down stairs).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Mike 870
    Mike 870 Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭✭✭
    #45
    Wow, so made  this post in 2009.  At the time, I think I assumed I’d be done by now.  Almost everything I was planning has changed.  I didn’t even successfully close on the same piece of land due to complications.  But 9 years later I’m back at it.

    Here is is a tour of the cabin so far: 
    https://youtu.be/owY4kWdw5uY

    And a walk through of my road and land:
     https://youtu.be/UcHQa2GQ-FQ
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #46
    Life is change!   Roll with the punches and, the vids look very nice!

     Your power system from 2009 and the mini-split have gotten cheaper and better!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #47
    Looks like a nice spot. Bought my place in 2010 - still not done. Might never get "done" if I keep thinking up more projects.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • Mike 870
    Mike 870 Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭✭✭
    #48
    Yea there was a lot of rolling with the punches on this project.  It is quite incredible how much prices have dropped.  Here's a video I made on the beginning of my off grid water system.  https://youtu.be/SnjdGaP9RKg
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