P.E.I. Wind Farm

CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭

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  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    Reading the article reveals some sad truths. One of the Execs is quoted as saying, "this isn't about making cheaper energy available to islanders, it's about making money". So the developer is going to ship the power to New England. (and Islanders will have to ship expensive power back to the island. My point is have a system that while it may encourage RE, that RE is forced to chase the most lucrative market. It would be nice if we could create a more rational market that is based more on efficiency and that IMHO would yield the best return. Since we don't have a particularly efficient grid nor a rational system of distribution we end up shipping power all too often great distances rather than building smaller more localized generating facilities.

    We also suffer from a huge NIMBY syndrome. The reality is that the folks in PEI may have great wind potential, but the reason that it got built there and not off the coast of Mass. is that folks on PEI needed the money and therefore there wasn't the opposition. I personally think that we all are going to need to share the sacrifices of our energy choices. For too long the coal miners in WV have paid the price for the Northeast's consumption. It's time for folks off Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket get on board.

    Tony
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    BC regularly ships its 'surplus' hydro power to California, runs short for its own needs, and then fires up the coal burners (we also have coal). Where's the sense in that? When you consider the power losses and costs in transferring it elsewhere you'd think 'borrowed' power would become too expensive. But it isn't!

    You know how we always tell everyone who comes on this forum to conserve first? Maybe utility companies and governments should learn that lesson. If everyone had to live 'off grid' for one month they'd get a far better idea of just how precious electricity is.

    But there is a whole, giant corporate mindset that needs changing. I know, because my brother-in-law is one of 'them'. Despite the fact he knows most outages are caused by over-loaded grid, he is not quick to embrace localized power production - claims it's inefficient. On a price basis, certainly. But you have to ask: if a kilowatt is worth 7¢ in BC why is it worth 55¢ in Cal.?

    And if that wind farm had been put up by certain small-scale wind promoters they'd claim it would produce 1000 megawatts - and it'd never work. Then the blades would fall off after six months.:p
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    tony,
    just a few tidbits on the coal. it isn't just wv that has coal for pa has some too. most of my area was mined out during our so called industrial revolution as it was needed for steel production starting back in the late 1800's. andrew carnegie made his start in steel not more than about a mile or 2 from me. pa also has both anthracite and bituminous types of coal.

    cariboocoot,
    that is part of supply and demand, but it tends to be somewhat artificially high making such a long distance energy buy possible.
    your brother in law doesn't really know as much as he thinks he does. inefficient indeed. that would make the grid more efficient spreading more smaller power generation points around. the grid is having to export power from 1 distant location to another and that is overloading the grid as it wasn't meant to do that to that extent. you know about resistive losses and just imagine those losses from your area to california.:roll: yup, all of that wasted power is your inlaw's idea of efficiency?:confused:
    btw, pa is pushing for all of the aspects of government in this commonwealth to actually utilize more renewables. i just wish those same incentives allocated for them would be applicable to me. cities, towns, schools, and even farms and other businesses are getting the incentives. there was a recent thing i sent to n3qik about pa incentives, but i did not read it as i forgot to. maybe if ken read it he can bring me up to date on whether it is remaining status quo for me.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,051 admin
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    We have some High Voltage DC transmission lines that run from around Canada down to Southern California.

    HVDC transmission lines are supposed to lose only 3% per 1,000 km...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    maybe so bill, but i'll bet that it's not the only power being fed through those lines as it is a distribution thing for others too is it not? it really isn't so much if it is dc or ac, but it boils down to current passing through a resistance and creating vdrops and hence power losses just as it would be for the voltage drop calculator in the sticky, but larger scale.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    Niel;

    My B-I-L is in the business. But I think he's only looking at the cost-per-kilowatt of production, and not taking into account all the other factors that crop up before the power actually reaches its point of use.

    You know, this is related to that other thread about the utility wanting to charge for your having panels and not using their power. It's all part of the same short-sightedness. Or should I say tunnel vision, as clearly they are looking at the aspect of company profit.

    Tony is right (again, as usual); we need to look at the real, total cost of power generation over the long-term, not just the immediate capital outlay.

    Personally, I think miles of utility poles each topped with a wind turbine or solar panel adding power to the grid along the way would be a pretty neat idea. :D
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    Marc,

    I've had this idea for years!

    "Personally, I think miles of utility poles each topped with a wind turbine or solar panel adding power to the grid along the way would be a pretty neat idea."

    Picture at every power pole that has a transformer on it,, a few panels with an "enphase type" inverter. Now if we could figure out how to put panels on sub mains without the transformer present,, some way to jump a ~500vdc array to 1.5kv or so grid. If we could figure out a way to induce the energy from the array into the grid without having to have a direct inverter at each pole,,,,hmmm!

    I'm still waiting for the flying cars however,

    Tony
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    Tony -

    A utility company would look at the cost of a panel, inverter, mounting & wiring and say "too much per kilowatt". (Although I understand some Enphase units were to be installed on poles in New Jersey.) The problem is putting a $ cost on the intangible benefits like reduced footprint, no operating pollution, lower maintenence (perhaps), less line loss, reduced vulnerability to major outages ... It gets complicated trying to quantify the whole thing, so they fall back on what they know: return on investment. Unless the intangibles can be explain in clear $ terms, they're not going to listen.

    Now I'm going down to my local DeSoto dealer an order a flying Firedome 8 ... :p
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    if the californa market on electricity is that hot, why don't we all just sell it to them as it would certainly pay better than many local utilities. i'll bet they are paying your utility marc more than they pay towards those with renewables right there in california so why not all of us combine for being a utility and sell it to them?
    just kidding, but it is an interesting thought. does your b.i.l. know what california utilities are paying to your local electric co.?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    Niel - no doubt you're right. Cal probably pays double to BC Hydro when buying than we pay for it here - plus currency exchanges - and what does it pay to grid-tie homeowners when buying? One of the reason for that is the volume of electricity involved and the dependability: Hydro can deliver megawatts on the mains, as it were, instead of picking up a few kilowatts here and there from individual home owners.

    My B-I-L designs control systems for power grids. I don't think he's too up on the retail aspect. And to think of the number of times he's complained about over-loaded grid and the resulting outages! He can rant against companies for not planning for expansion, but he doesn't think small-scale electric is or can be significant enough to make a difference.

    I hope ALBANYSOLARGUY and many like him get their megawatt installs in all over North America. :D
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: P.E.I. Wind Farm

    That's similar to New Mexico's first commercial geothermal power plant supplying electricity to homes in Arizona.

    http://www.rasertech.com/news/press-releases/raser-announces-20-year-power-purchase-agreement-with-salt-river-project-in-arizona

    So much for home grown power.
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