Startin new need some advice and cost est.

System
System Posts: 2,511 admin
Hello and I am glad I found this site. I am wanting to start and get as much info as I can and hopefully get something started next year on an install.
I am wanting to tie it into the grid as of now. Batteries later.

My questions are pretty broad as I am just trying to find out the costs involved and looking for a rough est. on what I am looking at here. Have about 5 people in the house right now. Propane for water and heater. AC and all appliances are Electric.

Live in KS and have a great skyline for the southern sky with 0 trees or hills. No trees for about half a mile and hills...well several hundred miles :)

Not sure what our monthly KwH will be as this is going to be a new house. But installed about how much is a system. And what systems are good that I should look up and see if they are in the area. I could do the install myself on the house, but not the electrical work. I do have an electrician for a friend and could get some of that done.

Thanks for any pointers or insights. I do not mean to post something that has been answered b4, but I am like I said just trying to get a general feel as to the cost of the whole project.

Thanks!

Comments

  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.

    I'll start simply,,,

    The first three rules of Solar are these,,,

    #1 Do everything you can to reduce your loads,,, for every $1 you spend on conservation you will save (depending on how you figure it) between $4-10 in PV costs.

    #2 After you have done everything you can think of to reduce the loads, and conserve,,,conserve some more.

    #3 See Rule number 1

    The point here is that it is, in the net/net silly to invest in PV solar to at X cost to save $Y if you could spend $1/2X to save 2Y,,, and in the real world that is the way it works. There are thousands of big (and more importantly) little things you can do that will save a ton of energy. Find the section on conservation at the bottom of this forum as a good place to start.

    After you have done the first three things,,, the next most cost effective is solar water heat, passive and active space heat (Or ground source/ground water heat pump) and then,,,,PV solar.

    Grid tie solar starts at ~$8-10 per watt installed,, not counting rebates from states or utilities, or tax credits. Roughly double that if you wanting a battery system. People get caught up in the idea of energy independence and want to get off grid,, but the grid is a great resource, a great 'battery bank' and depending on your billing system you can sell power at the peak rate and buy it back at the cheap rate, leaving you little or no bill,, even if you consume more than you produce. As I said,, batteries make the cost double.

    Read ALL you can here and elsewhere,, talk to people that know what they are doing,,, and avoid the " ready, fire, aim" syndrome and you will be on your way.

    Welcome to the PV/RE world,,, and this site. Shout if you have more questions.
    There are some very smart/experienced folks here who have invented the wheel. We all learn from their experience.

    Tony
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.

    Yes this is what I am looking for. We are starting out in a new home, and the hot water heater is a tankless. We have induction for a cooktop. CFL's and led lighting elsewhere. Not to mention ICF walls with a 6" core. Then the attic we are having it sealed off with foam insulation.
    We are starting out conserving conserving conserving. But Want to have the PV partially for the power, but more so for when the power fails. (Storms etc) plan on getting a solar generator as well at some point. But it is nice to make electricity as well.

    Thanks 8-10/watt?
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.
    icfks wrote: »
    plan on getting a solar generator as well at some point

    Uh...would this be the "solar generator" we were just discussing here the other day?

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=4873&highlight=solar+generator
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.

    As DWH suggests,, beware "solar generator".

    Yes $8-10 per WATT installed. Panels alone run ~$3.50-4.00 per watt retail,, inverters say $1.25 per watt,, add in racking, wiring permits etc,,

    Tony

    Ps,, since your hot water is already tankless, doing a simple solar water heater would be like falling off a log. Under $1000 (Cheaper DIY) in your climate and you'd get 75% of your hot water per year,,, a no brainer in my mind. See the threads in the solar water pumping section of this forum.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.

    icfks,

    First, you need to know what kind of system you want/need, does your utility support Net Metering (best for customer--if you generate more than you use, meter turns backwards... If you use more than you generate, meter turns forwards. Buying/Selling power at list price. Many smaller utilities will not allow and, may let you buy at retail and sell at wholesale which is ~1/2 to 1/4 the retail price).

    Next you need to know how much power you will be using per month (and, many times your seasonal loads will vary greatly--i.e., A/C).

    So--First question. You want emergency backup power and you have utility mains. A "Hybrid" system would be a good answer for you. They have the advantage of Grid Tied and Net metering, relatively efficient--but costly because of the extra hardware and batteries (plus battery maintenace/replacement every ~7-15 years).

    Read about Xantrex's XW system. One of the better ones out there at this time.

    Realize that a standard Grid Tied system (solar panels + GT Inverter) is the cheapest power you will generate (~$0.10 to $0.30 per kWhr)--however, because it does not have batteries, it cannot provide emergency power if the mains fail.

    A true off-grid system is common (Solar panels + battery charger + batteries + AC Inverter + backup generator + etc.)--but only really cost effective it you are miles from utility lines and don't use too much power. Electricity from one of these systems will (very roughly) cost you in the $1.00 to $2.00 per kWhr range.

    The hybrid system (solar panels + charge controller + batteries + GT/Off-Grid Hybrid Inverter) system can meet your requirements--but it (a very very rough guess) will probably cost you in the range of $0.30 to $0.60 per kWhr for power (really rough guess)

    Since you have an electric cook top and A/C--lets assume you are going with a Grid Tied or Hybrid type system.

    I would recommend looking at using propane for all of your normal appliances (if you can) as it will probably be cheaper than running from your solar system...

    Let us guess that you use the average US household power of ~10,000 kWhrs per year.

    You can use this website to estimate the power output of a solar system by picking a location near your home--Say Topeka KS.

    Use 1kW for the solar panels (scaling factor) and use defaults for the rest of the questions for now (actually, the defaults make a very nice, simple, cost effective system in general):

    A grid tied (or probably a Hybrid) system would generate ~1,310 kWhrs per year per 1 kW of solar panel. Assuming your standard American home uses 10,000 kWhr per year:

    10,000 kWhrs / 1,310 kWhrs per 1kW of solar panels=7.63 kW or 7,630 Watts of solar panels

    Now, pricing of systems has been coming down because of economic slump--a GT system was ~$8-10 list price per watt of solar panel... It may be down to $6-$7 per watt in some areas now (before 30% tax credits and local rebate--see here for details).

    So, for a GT system, list price before rebates maybe around:

    7,630 watts * *$7 per watt = $53,000 installed (very rough guess before rebates/credits)

    Now, 10,000 kWhrs per year is roughly 900 kWhrs per month (12 month average) or a power bill of:

    900 kWhrs per month * $0.08 per kWhr ave for KS = $72 per month

    How much would your power cost? Assuming 20 year life, no loan fees and 30% tax credits:

    $53,000 * 0.70 after credits / (20 years * 10,000 kWhrs per year) =$0.19 per kWhr

    And for a Hybrid system--that cost may be 50% to 100% more (because of batteries and charge controllers, new wiring for protected loads, etc.). Which would make your power costs even higher.

    The above are just guesses on my part to help you guesstimate the size and costs of your system. I am not in the solar business, a contractor, or installer. The economic return on investment is just a rough pass to allow you to compare costs without a lot of effort.

    Prices of hardware+installation+maintenance, price of power, property taxes (in some states), utility fees and restrictions, etc. all will dramatically affect your particular installation.

    Please ask questions here (and other places) and do your own research. The above is to point you in the right direction and help you understand the scope of the project.

    And as Tony (and everyone else here says)--understand your loads/power consumption. Solar is not cheap and anything you do to reduce your loads/power needs will save you lots of money--even if you never install a PV power system.

    For basic equipment costs--our host (Northern Arizona Wind and Sun) has a website with good quality equipment and fair pricing. You should do your own search for products too (shipping costs for solar panels and batteries are not cheap)--but it will give you a good start in sizing your system.

    Some rebates/credits have serious limitations on who can install a system (or they reduce credits if self installed). Also, there are, typically, engineering reports for roof structures, and electrical licenses/building permits required. Typically, the first install is very confusing--the second and third are much easier--so you may look around your area and see if anyone nearby is doing an install and you and see what is required for self-install.

    Questions/comments?

    -Bill

    PS: Neither Niel or myself (Moderators) are connected in any way with NAWS other than as volunteers to help control spam and fix any minor posting issues.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • FL SUN
    FL SUN Solar Expert Posts: 94 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.
    icfks wrote: »
    Yes this is what I am looking for. We are starting out in a new home, and the hot water heater is a tankless. We have induction for a cooktop. CFL's and led lighting elsewhere. Not to mention ICF walls with a 6" core. Then the attic we are having it sealed off with foam insulation.


    Sounds like you are doing it right. Starting off with an efficient envelope is the way to go. Tankless water heating is also the key to energy savings.

    While you are thinking of solar pv (electric), don't forget about thermal solar for hot water. For a house of 5, you'll need to size your storage tank adequately, but you'll offset your LP consumption for water heating by 60+% with a properly sized thermal solar set-up.

    Just to let you know, we have been in an ICF home for 3 years in FL. Same construction as yours with closed cell foam sprayed on the underdeck. Our avg electric consumption per day is 25 KWH. Not bad for 3,000 sq ft. And we don't have any solar electric yet.

    Our monthly therm use (NG) went from 15 to 18 therms to 5 to 9 therms with solar water heating.

    You guys from Greensburg, by chance?
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.

    :) no not from Greensburg. Been wanting to do an ICF house for a long time. One good thing about the Greensburg T that went through is it has finally increased awareness for ICF here. Kansans have a mind set of sprawl and lots of space between your neighbor and living "fat" meaning not worrying about your trash and power. I think it has to do with the "plenty of land" we don't have to worry where to put a landfill. Just dig a hole! We have relatively cheap power so we don't want to make homes better.
    But since the F5 that came through people are looking at ICF's thinking that would be a good idea. And now they are finding out that hey that thing stays hot/cold! wow. They look at New York city or downtown Wichita and think that is what a concrete home looks like.
    This mindset is also hindering my solar panel research here. Oh and check this out. The area I live in has a no windmill covenant. I asked about wind generator and they didn't know. And I am not pushing the issue because they wrote it with the water pump or on for looks not a wind generator.

    As far as net metering we can do that. I am looking for a Hybrid system. I am waiting on the battery tech to get just a little bit better, but would like to get in on the PV while there are still credits, and I am building. Just seems like a good time to do it.

    Thanks for the real world info on your ICF. I'm thinking your climate is a little more stable then ours however. I have our info from the current house and want to see what the 1st year at the new house is going to be like.


    Thanks for this info. Going to use this as my start. It is great stuff!! I really do appreciate it!
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.

    just a quick comment on this, "I am wanting to tie it into the grid as of now. Batteries later".
    you really can't do it that way as a batteryless grid tied inverter cannot have batteries added later and ones that take batteries need them to operate immediately. to accomplish what you state would mean buying another inverter later when you wish to add the batteries. my thoughts are for you to go with something like the xantrex xw inverter line and add a minimal number of batteries for now, but don't wait long as mixing batteries of differing ages isn't recommended. some do go with cheap batteries that they know won't last long and when the expansion is to take place they replace those old ones. note that running minimal batteries won't allow for much backup power as those batteries would strain and fail with anything significant on them, but a few cfls would be ok for a short time.
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.

    Ok thanks. See this is very helpful. I was actually thinking about the inverter from you previous post. Would I need to put batteries on it? Or just have it sent to the grid right off?
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.

    it needs the batteries.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Startin new need some advice and cost est.

    However, you can start with a "minimum" number of batteries (it something like 400 AMP*Hours @ 48 volts of batteries per 6048 inverter for proper operation).

    Basically, enough power for a short power outage--not intended for an off-grid lifestyle. Something like 1-4 hours of backup power before solar and/or generator need to be started (at ~50% inverter load). If your power is reliable for the most part--not a bad system at all.

    Run it for a 1/2 decade, then build out with more batteries if you need them (probably replace the entire string with a new set).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset