Need some advice

solarnewbie
solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
Hi there everybody, I'm hoping I can get some advice before I embark on my solar adventure:p.

I will try and keep it as straightforward as possible, Ive done alot of research into solar and the idea of clean, free and renewable energy is just fascinating.

I live in Beirut Lebanon where we get 300 days of sunshine a year (basically the mediteranean four seasons) Winters can be a bit harsh down to zero degrees when theres a storm, bit of snow where I live.

I come from a country where we experience power outages on a daily basis.
its out for an hour somedays and sometimes it goes for six hours to eight hours, to compensate people either get their own generator which is what ive done or someone sells you power via a commercial generator. 5 amps@ 50 U.S. a month and 10 amps@100 U.S. (this means a continouse 5to 10 amps of power for a 6 hour period, if you go over the amp limit to say 11 amp drawing power the breaker clicks and you need to switch something off and switch it back on)

The idea of using a solar panel that can give me 5 to 10 amps is a great idea both economically and environmentally. Ive been look at RV and Boat models where the prices are in the 1000/1,500 U.S.. range for the whole kit. Of course you cant use Airconditioners or water heaters on that but you can use lights tv computer etc which is what Im looking for. What would you advise me to get? Im also thinking of starting a business as well where I can sell the system on the market, but first the prototype will be my house. I need something reliable at a reasonable price.

Ive been looking at so many accessories and panels and information, I think I'll need a sharp panel to be able to use the new micro inverter on as it as you can use it on sharp panels, im thinking two T106 golf cart batteries, maybe ill get one sharp panel over the 160w range as that way ill save on using another micro inverter, that should be able to give me 7.5 AMPS over a 24 hour period I think.

If anyone can reccommend anything else id appreciate it.

the current draw should be able to achieve 7.5amps to 10amps over a 6 to 8 hour period per day and then its back to the grid when the power is switched on again.controller should be limited to about 10 amps lets say. The charge controller decides the maximum amount of current (amps) that should go through it at one time, so lets say battery capacity is 100AH that means I can use this for ten hours at a 10 amp current draw if its fully charged plus the fact that during the day the solar panel will be charging the battery or batteries which means a longer usage. So ideally to achieve this I would need a solar panel that can generate 7.5 amps?(But then again the batteries are the heart of the design), The package needs to be as small and compact as possible with the minimum wiring to enable me to go commercial with this product.

Comments

  • Dapdan
    Dapdan Solar Expert Posts: 330 ✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    hey sn,

    check out my thread on "affordable solar" where i outline a small system and see if that will help you. btw you should not plan on discharging the battery below 50% dod you will shorten the life of the battery even if this is occuring will charging. you will also need to remember you may need storage for the night as well. Give your battery capacity some more thought and research. I would think if you want to use 100ah you would need twice that capacity and also be able to recharge during the day while possibly carrying loads at the same time given your outages. I would also say you would need at least 600w pv as well even though you may have good weather you would need to size according to your worst weather. I think you need to do some more research on your power input from the Pv end as well.

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=4803

    Oh yeah, you need to look at your loads as well. you said up 10a for up to 8hr. Is this 120v ac you are refering to? If so by my calc. you are talking about 9.6kwh per day which is alot and cannot be achieved with a small system.

    Cheers...
    Damani
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    The Solar panel amperage is typically @12V, your comparing that to your 120V ( or is it 220V ) amperage, that's a factor of 10 difference.

    Solar is not compact, to have your 10 amps, that's either 1200 or 2400 watts of energy ( 120 or 220V ), you would need 10 of those sharp panels, a good sized battery bank , charge controller, inverter ect.

    The reason your not seeing this locally packaged for sale is not because solar is new or no one has missed this business opportunity, its because solar it not cheap, not compact and can't possible compete cost wise to a generator.

    It can be done, but your looking at 10X the cost of a gas generator and allot of space. I'd also be concerned of theft with valuable panels being outside
  • solarnewbie
    solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Need some advice

    Thank you so much for your swift replies, I'll try and explain it better, the elec current is 220v and all appliances run at that. But I thought when the list they output on a 200w solar and list 7.5 amps output that meant if i use a voltage meter on the out line of the solar it would read 7.5 amps current. Would that be right? It would be used to power a few lights Tv and small fridge. 5 amps do that in lebanon. So its different? :confused: God... I havent even scratched the surface. Lets say two 200 AH batteries as storage would it work? 7.5 amp current for 6 hours. At a reasonable price for what a person is getting.

    What do you think?
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    Your need to have a common denominator in your comparison, amps is not energy, its a measuring metric.

    If you need 5 amps @ 220V that's 1,100 watts of energy. To get energy from solar panels @12V you would need 1100/12 = 92 amps

    I can tell you right now solar won't work for your requirements, its to costly, to big for the loads your looking at. If you allow more space, more cost and less loads, then other can give you suggestions on what you can look at, but right now your off by a factor of 20 on what you think you need because your thinking the amps from the low voltage solar panel and the amps from the 220V utility source is the same wattage, they are not
  • Dapdan
    Dapdan Solar Expert Posts: 330 ✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    Hey sn,

    you really need to do some research.

    First off, a 200w panel output 7.5amp does that at 26.6v (using P=VI).

    As for your load of 7.5a, 220v for 6hr you would be looking at 7.5*220*6=9900wh which is basically 10kw per day! to store this kind of energy at 12v that is at least 825ah bank allowing for a 50% dod (and this does not take into account the effeciency of the the type of battery 80-90% depending on battery design). if you are going to store at 24v(minmum recommended for this size system) your storage is 412.5ah.

    We have not even looked at your inverter which has to be sized according to your your duty loads, but i reckon it would have to be at least 1500w pure sine wave on account that you wan to run a fridge and would need to cope with the surge demands of your fridge plus the other loads.

    Panel wise you will need to recharge those batteries in a day given your history of blackout. without the benifit of all the detailed information i reckon you will need at least 2000w of pv along with a good mppt charge controller to achieve this.

    long story-short...this is not a small system but more medium sized.

    I would say my present system is medium sized as you can see by my signature and it give me an average or 300ah at 24v per good solar day. I comfortablely run my entire house on my system and at the end of every day my batteries are fully charged. my average daily consumption is 6.5kwh. I can gurantee this since i have my power feeding through a Kill-a-meter before going to my house. I have monitored this meter for the past 6 months.

    Cheers...
    Damani
  • solarnewbie
    solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Need some advice

    Hi Damani,

    How much would a system like your cost if you mind me asking? The inverter is an expensive item, but there's a new micro inverter that costs 195 US which is added to each panel, thats why I was trying to keep the panel numbers down.

    I didnt realise I needed that many panels.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    Welcome to the forum, and your interest in RE.


    Perhaps we should post on the banner of the site,,, since it is a confusion that happens so often.

    THE UNIT TO MEASURE ELECTRICAL ENERGY IS WATTS!!!! WATTS, WATTS, WATTS.

    Watts are the product of Volts X Amps. One can change either of these variables and come up with a different amount of WATTS! 1 amp @ 120 volts = 120 watts of useable energy. 1 amp @ 12 volts = 12 watts of useable energy.

    PV panels are rated (sold) in watts,,, as measured by their voltage ad their amperage.

    On a second banner, perhaps we could include the following. PV systems either off grid or grid tie are not free. If you wish a basic idea of what a system will cost you, figure your DAILY LOAD IN WATT/HOURS so you have an idea of what you will need,,,(You will have to do some more in depth calcs regarding number of hours etc to get to a goo guestimate) and then use a number of ~$5-10 USD per NET WATT installed for a grid tie system. Roughly double that,,,- $10-20 per NET WATT for a battery system!

    Tony

    PS. As for estimating. Most people over estimate their potential system input, and underestimate their loads,,, and the total system efficiency.

    PPS. For every $1 spent on conservation,,, one will save ~$10 in PV cost. Conservation is the first, second and third thing to do before one invests a nickel in any PV.
  • hillbilly
    hillbilly Solar Expert Posts: 334 ✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    Couple of things to consider:
    You mention power outages daily; are these at any and all hours? Do you need to have back up power for night time loads, or just day time loads? Could you get by on less power (small back up battery bank) for any evening power outages? What I am getting at is that it's far cheaper to produce enough power directly from the solar array during the day time hours; what gets really expensive is trying to store a lot of "extra" energy in batteries (far less efficient, lots of lost power).
    Try really counting up your power needs, and then decide how much you could live without (or if there is a more efficient version available). Look at what loads you could reduce permanently first (more efficient appliances, lights, etc), then look into what loads could be shed during power outages... perhaps you could have a much smaller back up system for those time frames when the main power goes down. If you are looking into trying to power your whole house exclusively via solar panels, you most certainly CAN do it, but as others have said it will not likely be "cheap" (financially speaking). In that case you would want to go over your energy consumption with a fine tooth comb (be ruthlessly honest about the difference between the energy you "need" and the energy you "want"), every hour and every penny you spend doing this will be paid back many times over in a much more affordable system.
    I'd love to take a guess at what a "big system" might cost you, but the reality is I don't think that most of us would have a clue as to what things might cost over there for you. What kinds of components you would have access to, what they would cost, any shipping or import costs you may have, permit fees, installation costs... etc... these are all big ????'s None of this is meant to discourage you in any way... just hope to point you towards the smart questions to ask, and be sure to take your time in figuring this all out.
    Good luck
  • lorelec
    lorelec Solar Expert Posts: 200 ✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    solarnewbie,

    If you're determined to use solar as a source of energy, then it sounds like you'll need to reduce your electricty demand some (which is always a good idea, if just from the standpoint of conservation). This might mean replacing your fridge or TV with newer models, using fluorescent lighting if you aren't already doing so, etc. Maybe you could ditch the electric fridge and use a propane one, if that's an option for you. What you want to do seems entirely feasible if you can better match your demand to the capacity of a small solar setup.

    Marc
  • solarnewbie
    solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Need some advice

    Well the elec bill says 200 kw( Kw right?) per month. Thats with the outages.So Im guessing my power consumption is 300Kw which is an average for the year.

    So Im looking for a system that can generate 120 KW lets say, just to be on the safe side.

    looks like I'll have to cough up a lot of money to achieve that.:cry:
  • Dapdan
    Dapdan Solar Expert Posts: 330 ✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    hey sn,

    my system cost me appro $15k us including tax and sea freight from miami. as others have said it is hard to quantify your due your specific locale (taxes, freight and install)

    oh yeah i installed my system myself and i got second hand batteries on the cheap.

    It would be diff to compare my specific environment with yours but you have an example of real world experiences and cost anyway.

    Cheers...
    Damani
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice
    Well the elec bill says 200 kw( Kw right?) per month. Thats with the outages.So Im guessing my power consumption is 300Kw which is an average for the year.

    So Im looking for a system that can generate 120 KW lets say, just to be on the safe side.

    looks like I'll have to cough up a lot of money to achieve that.:cry:

    Just to clarify, Watts, kilowatts, megawatts,,, have no real meaning without a time element,,, hence Kilowatt/hours. (kwh)

    1 kwh is the equivalent of a 100 watt light bulb being turned on for ten hours.

    100watts X 10 hours =1000 watt/hours or 1 kwh.

    So if you are figuring any loads you must include a time element. Just listing a taster at 2000 watts for example, doesn't mean anything if you don't also estimate that you use it for 1/2 hour per day for example.

    2000 X .5 = 1000 wh or 1.0 kwh

    Tony
  • sub3marathonman
    sub3marathonman Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    It really isn't a question of solar power to me. It is a question of electrical storage. What you really want is 100kwh / month to use when the grid is off. And what you must compare is the price of the electricity purchased during the off-grid time frame vs. a solar setup. And I'm calculating about $1.50 / kwh for the off-grid time. I don't know what the price for the on-grid time is.

    What I would at first do is look into getting the inverter and the battery setup for it. What you won't spend on solar panels now you can put into the batteries and inverter. That way too, you won't have to worry about theft of expensive solar panels either. Then you will be setup for the future to take advantage of PV generation, if the opportunity arises.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    Given the reality,, wouldn't it be simpler,,, and probably cheaper in the long run, to have and run a generator for those times when the grid is down. I realize that that would come with some cost(s) financial and otherwise,, but compared to buying and keeping a set of batteries (and replacing them over time) a properly sized, efficient generator might be way cheaper.

    Once you have a stable grid,, then one might consider grid tie,

    Tony
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    i agree with tony that the cheapest option you have is your own generator. we can't really say of the fuel costs or availability over there as we wouldn't know of this. if a generator isn't feasible the next best thing would be going to a whole house backups system. this would be using the batteries and inverter just like in a solar system, but instead of the expense of the pvs, you would have the utility charge the batteries while your utility power is operational. if you would like you could add pvs and a good charge controller later to supplement the battery banks charge.
    note that those microinverters are grid tied and do not provide power in the absence of your utility power. you want an inverter that will 1> charge the batteries when the grid is active and 2> automatically switch on to power items connected to it when the power goes off and are fused or have a circuit breaker.
  • solarnewbie
    solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Need some advice

    Guys I appreciate the feedback you have taken the time to give me very much, it has been invaluable, I think after this feedback made me realise that pv still needs a few more years to mature to what it can really do. I think my contribution to our tortured environment will be solar hot water for now and I'll keep my eyes and ears open for any breakthroughs (nano technology for example). As soon as it becomes cost effective and if the oil and utility companies let it happen then I will be standing in line. In the meantime I'll continue to visit your forum because honestly youre a cool bunch of guys.:D

    And the back up batteries is an idea ( its used but not on a large scale), but then it uses up fossil fuel to be regenerated and that sort of defied the purpose. Like I said Solar power fascinates me, nature is very important to me and so is preserving it. I'll let you guys know if I find or decide on anything.

    Take care, peace
  • solarnewbie
    solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Need some advice

    Heres some interesting information for you solar lovers

    http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=65315

    This got me started with the idea that it can be done

    edited for 1a rules violation (click ads on side, article by itself was ok)

    The idea of the price estimate started here:

    edited for 1 rules violation (site contains items our host sells)

    What do you think? Should I try one out?

    note from niel,
    you could've verbalized generalities to describe what got you started and mentioned in a generic sense of a pv package that contains a pv (give specs) with whatever other items described in the same generic text for a given price.
  • solarnewbie
    solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Need some advice
    Heres some interesting information for you solar lovers

    http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=65315

    This got me started with the idea that it can be done

    edited for 1a rules violation (click ads on side, article by itself was ok)

    The idea of the price estimate started here:

    edited for 1 rules violation (site contains items our host sells)

    What do you think? Should I try one out?

    note from niel,
    you could've verbalized generalities to describe what got you started and mentioned in a generic sense of a pv package that contains a pv (give specs) with whatever other items described in the same generic text for a given price.

    K sorry. Got it. Will do that
  • hillbilly
    hillbilly Solar Expert Posts: 334 ✭✭
    Go for it

    I support your determination to go solar! I personally am not all that fond of going the route of a generator just because it's "cheaper". There are many ways of calculating cost, and upfront financial cost is certainly not the only factor to consider (nor in my opinion is it always the most important one). The realities of a self sufficient solar power system are a bit daunting though, a set up for 300 kwhrs a month (or roughly 10 kwhrs/day) will be very costly financially.
    I suggest going back and re reading some of the suggestions about looking into what you can conserve first and foremost. If for example you could cut that use down to 200 kwhrs a month (or even better, 100 kwhrs), you could get by on a much smaller system. Since you only need temporary power during outages I would seriously look into only providing battery back up for the most critical loads at those times, then sizing the PV array to be large enough to charge those batteries and provide a bit of excess power for your loads.
    If you were to try and cut all ties from the grid and be totally solar powered (I am not sure if this was what you are considering), that would probably require a battery bank in excess of 10,000-15,000 (that's in USD, assuming that you could buy the batteries at similar costs)... Unless you can reduce your loads a bit.
    If you could get by on say 400-500 watts (say 2amps or less on your voltage) while power was out for a few hours that would be much more affordable. Let's say that you could size a battery bank to supply you with about 480 watts for up to 8 hours before being at 50% SOC, that would equate to a battery bank of: 160ah at 48V, 320ah at 24V, or 640ah at 12V. (this would probably cost more like $1000-2000 +/-). A PV array of 500watts-1000watts would probably charge this bank nicely and leave you with some leftover power to use. These are all very rough numbers for examples only, and have not taken all key info into account... just to give you a rough idea of what kinds of numbers you might be looking at, and how important conservation is.
    keep at it...
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    also of note is how the priority seemed to shift a bit from maintaining during frequent outages to getting away from fossil fuels. not a problem though as you can do both with a solar backed household ups. the pvs would be implemented to give the primary charge to the batteries and the built-in charger can make up for any cloudy days or seasonal low solar outputs should it become necessary.
    also note that solarnewbie was concerned about costs he initially had to put forth to pay somebody for generator power. buying a generator merely was mentioned as an alternative to his paying somebody else just as was the backups and solar all of which are much higher in costs than the generator and what he may be paying somebody else to provide. he also indicated he needed far less in equipment, some of which was wrong for his intent, than he really would need to go solar so costs are relevant as the op made it so.
  • solarnewbie
    solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Need some advice

    I cant be grid independent it would be too costly that I know, Im looking for something to back me up during outages, at the moment im using a Kubota Generator that generates 15 amps of current, and I use it on 3 houses at 5 amps each, but its a pain refueling, changing the oil, a bit noisy, but its a good generator and when theres an outage during the day I dont even use it so I dont have to join commercial generators where u get ripped off at 50 us and a 100 us a month as sometimes the grid power is on 24/24 hrs. What I'm looking for ideally would be something that can generate 80 to 100kw a month and if worse comes to worse cost wise I can still use the generator as back up from time to time. In Lebanon you never know what happens, for example we had a war in the summer where Lebanon was practically cut off from the outside world, we started running out of fuel, even the commercial generators started running out after two weeks, I'm telling you guys that place is just crying for solar solutions. In regards to power saving every household is pretty much on the path of minimising their usage because remember they have a 5 to 10 amp limit when on a commercial generator so the fridge is a priority. They use power saving lights in almost every household. Diesel is most commonly used for heating not elec. Heavy loads such as heating water and cooling, toasters, hairdryers are used when the grid comes back on or if you get a bigger generator.

    I just need a system to charge the batteries and when the power goes out every once in a while be able to use a 37" LCD and a couple of lights, Computer and fridge is a priority, but id prefer it to be solar panels because in lebanon you should always expect the unexpected. I'll test my system out and fine tune it and once I get the correct package I'll try and sell it to the power hungry market. Im willing to pay 2,000 to 3,000 US for something like that. Everyday theres something new like for example the enphase micro inverter that goes on each panel individually which they say is very effecient and you get some very accurate information on your laptop on the performance of your solar panels individually, so you can trouble shoot much easier than having one inverter and you can easily expand your solar array that way.Grid tie will become a reality in Lebanon sooner or later and then I think solar panels will become very popular. Customs is 5% I think on panels and add another 10% TVA so i'd be paying an extra 15% on top of the original price. Dont know about the shipping costs. Some items I can buy locally I think like the batteries and some of the accessories to save shipping costs, but I think the panels have to be from overseas. Do you think that if I import panels from the states they would be discounted as your tax wouldn't be applicable if its for import?
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    you may not have to get them specifically from the usa as many countries are producing solar equipment. for instance germany is big into solar and many products are available from them. here's a place you can research to see where you can possibly obtain some things.
    http://www.solarbuzz.com/solarindex/expo.htm
    btw, make sure you don't buy starting batteries for your home backups as they aren't made for this type of deep cycle use.
    the inverter/charger combo is a good one for you and you can add solar to it. make sure for the batteries' sake that you give them at least a 5% charge rate of their total ah capacity. you may need more than that too depending on the load requirements you'll place upon them. you can look over other threads in this discussion site to help you size everything to suit your needs.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    You are not going to find a system to generate 1-2 kwh/day into an off grid system for 2-3K. IMHO.

    Tony
  • solarnewbie
    solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Need some advice

    1. Swinburne University of Technology has teamed up with Suntech Power to develop solar cells that are twice as efficient and run at half the cost of those currently available. Swinburne will contribute $3 million dollars to the venture, with Suntech pledging a further $3 million over the course of the collaboration.

    There we go, advances in the technology, its only a matter of time.

    2. Researchers at the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems ISE have achieved a record efficiency of 41.1% for the conversion of sunlight into electricity. Sunlight is concentrated by a factor of 454 and focused onto a small 5mm² multi-junction solar cell made out of GaInP/GaInAs/ Ge (gallium indium phosphide, gallium indium arsenide on a germanium substrate).
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice

    While I look forward to any advances,,, I will believe them when I can buy them off the shelf.

    Pv Efficiency is not the real issue (as a basis of square footage),,, the real issue is advancement of battery technology.

    Icarus
  • solarnewbie
    solarnewbie Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Need some advice

    Roger that. Deep cycle batteries, the types that are being used on elec cars are the key, and the research on that is in full swing by all the big names. So a much more efficient solar technology and a much more efficient battery system should do the trick. Only question is how long?
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some advice
    Roger that. Deep cycle batteries, the types that are being used on elec cars are the key, and the research on that is in full swing by all the big names.

    Well yes...and no. Tesla uses lithium ion batteries. Honda is working from the hydrogen generator plan which uses only a small on-board battery primarily to store energy from the re-generative braking system.

    There *are* some battery tech breakthroughs on the horizon. For instance:
    http://news.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html

    The problem is that we're still assembling nanotech one molecule at a time with electron microscopes, or allowing the stuff to "self-grow" which only works for certain things.

    A good overview of some of what is coming is in Wil McCarthy's "Hacking Matter", which is available to read for free on his web site:
    http://www.wilmccarthy.com/hm.htm

    I would also suggest reading K. Eric Drexler's "Engines of Creation" - also free online:
    http://e-drexler.com/p/06/00/EOC_Cover.html

    And just for giggles, dig this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEYN18d7gHg&feature=player_embedded


    So a much more efficient solar technology and a much more efficient battery system should do the trick. Only question is how long?

    Not long really. Another decade. Maybe two.

    We know how to do it now. What we don't have is the tools to make the tools to make the tools to make the devices.