Maximum generator THD for input to inverter charger - Schneider SW4024 ?

Loren_Amelang · January 14

My 50 year old Onan generator has serious problems, so I'm investigating a modern replacement. I know the current crop of Chinese gensets is not going to be nearly that quality, but I only need a generator a few times a year during long cloudy spells.

The one spec I'm stuck on is THD - most new portable generators say <23% THD, and warn that they should not be used to power any electronic devices. I see various online values for the acceptable THD, mostly between 5% and 9%, which make 23% sound dangerous. I can't find any THD spec in any of my Schneider inverter documentation. I certainly don't want to damage my inverter charger by using a cheap generator!

A possible solution would be an inverter generator. They seem to spec THD in the 2% to 3% range. And would have the advantage of burning less propane and making less noise as the charging load declines. But somehow generator -> inverter -> charger -> battery -> inverter -> loads seems a bit complex...

Has anyone here used a modern <23% THD generator to charge their system through a Schneider SW4024? Or through any solar inverter charger? Is it a problem? Might there be some other problem using an inverter generator?

Graham Parkinson · January 15

Our inverter generator (H3000) is totally happy chugging away battery charging via an 120/240 autotransformer into our Schneider XWPro.

Most inverter generators (except the high end H7000) are 120V only, but their typically quieter operation makes them attractive. I think that your SW inverter will work with a 120V generator.

The main problem with non-inverter generator's is that the inverter may not qualify (synch up) to these generators reliably if they are slightly off adjustment in RPM / voltage etc. Cheaper open frame construction type (3600 RPM) generators often have this problem. Inverter generators are almost guaranteed to synch up with your inverter.

Our neighbour runs the Westinghouse 4500W inverter at the link below into his 120V Magnum inverter and is very happy with it. This generator has 3%THD, is120V only, but can run on propane out of the box and has remote start capability (he has it adapted the remote start port to hook it up to his AutoGenStart unit)

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Westinghouse-4500-Peak-Watt-Electric-Start-Dual-Fuel-Portable-Inverter-Generator-with-RV-Outlet/299247705

Dave Angelini · January 15

The gensets at costco all seem to work fine with CSW for my clients. If not you can take it back. My CSW seems to work with everything and the hondas are all easy on it. I lend it all the time.

Lately alot of my California buddies are taking the drive to stateline to get any generator they can.

I never hear this on the news about new gens being banned in Cali since 2023?

BB. · January 15

It looks like Honda has given up on the gasoline powered generators. Here is a local (SF Bay Area) Home Depot:

This Website has some information on California rules:

https://gearshifters.org/honda/why-are-honda-generators-not-for-sale-in-california/

The sale of portable generators, which includes generators mounted in recreational vehicles, will no longer be allowed in the state after the California Air Resources Board (CARB) issued a law targeting “Small Off-Road Engines” on Thursday.
Beginning in 2024, the decision prohibits the sale of gas-powered lawnmowers and leaf blowers in the state. Beginning in 2028, portable generators will need to comply with zero-emission regulations in addition to stricter requirements starting in 2024.
It seems implausible to expect portable generators to increase their efficiency by between 40% and 90% by the 2024 model year, therefore in practice, it will be very challenging to acquire a generator in California in that time.
...
Gas generators may still be purchased in California.
Beginning in 2028, the California generator ban imposes sales restrictions on generators powered by gasoline. It does not, however, restrict their use. It will be necessary to travel to a neighboring state with laxer generator regulations in order to buy gasoline-powered generators.
The fact that not all portable generators will be subject to the prohibition must be understood. Generators powered by diesel and propane are exempt from the law. For individuals who depend on generators as a source of electricity, these generators are a great choice.

Why can’t I find certain generators in California?

I like Honda gensets for the reliability and for (at least the inverter-generator family) low(er) fuel usage (especially when lightly loaded).

However, paying 1/3rd the price (look for Costco and others for sale pricing) for similar to Honda inverter-generator models--It is difficult to justify looking for Honda.

-Bill

Loren_Amelang · January 15

"The fact that not all portable generators will be subject to the prohibition must be understood. Generators powered by diesel and propane are exempt from the law."

Unfortunately it seems all the small portable generators are "dual fuel", including the option to use gasoline even though I would only use propane. I'm finding a random seletion of those are currently sold in CA, as if they have some special bureaucratic approval. Some sources list CARB approved and non-CARB versions, for the same price. And the CARB version is often sold out...

But it seems even those will be gone by 2028. Maybe I need to buy one now... Or maybe the vendors will begin selling propane only versions by 2028?

Graham Parkinson · January 15

The California regs might just be what Honda needs to jolt them into providing native propane generators which would be excellent.

Loren_Amelang · January 15

@Dave Angelini

"The gensets at costco all seem to work fine with CSW for my clients. If not you can take it back. My CSW seems to work with everything"

Do you know if any of those gensets have the THD <23% spec? Like most of the 5000-10000 W models for $1000 to $2000 seem to?

The nearest source is an hour away, and I can't see well enough to drive. "Taking it back" means begging a friend for hours of their time...

BB. · January 16

Here is a Costco 7500 Watt firman tri-fuel genset for $900.

https://firmanpowerequipment.com/products/t07571

Standard genset and the reviews do have a couple complaints about unable to run UPS units.

-Bill

BB. · January 16

Here is an example of a few Costco California available generators:

https://www.costco.com/generators.html

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/lv/uf20ch8xeoo1.png

The public web pages seem to be around $100 cheaper for in-store stock (clarify--Member prices seem to be something like $100 less than the prices seem here)... The Firman seem to be OK gensets... I have a Firman inverter-generator 1700/2100 Watt (or so) unit that I have run for 30+ hours or so... No problems at this time.

For those who wonder what the heck THD (total harmonic distortion) really is--And how power sources and loads affect the "system", this website has a really nice document about the issues.

https://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html

It is written towards Movie/TV Crews and their loads (such as lighting and electronics)--But it does give a really good overview of the issues.

-Bill

Wheelman55 · January 16

Dave. Will one of these EG4 Chargeverters allow battery charging with any generator?

https://eg4electronics.com/five-features-of-the-eg4-chargeverter-gc/

littleharbor2 · January 16

BB. said:

Here is a Costco 7500 Watt firman tri-fuel genset for $900.
https://firmanpowerequipment.com/products/t07571
Standard genset and the reviews do have a couple complaints about unable to run UPS units.
-Bill

Here it is for $749.99 with free shipping from eBay. Firman factory refurb.
FIRMAN T07571F 9400/7500W Tri Fuel Electric Start Portable Generator 50A | eBay

Dave Angelini · January 16

Wheelman55 said:

Dave. Will one of these EG4 Chargeverters allow battery charging with any generator?

https://eg4electronics.com/five-features-of-the-eg4-chargeverter-gc/

It will not work with any generator! Pretty big word "any". I have 2 chargeverters from EG4 BTW. You can stack at least 8 of them for really big system batteries.

The guy who started this thread with a 23% THD genset would be a good source for test😉

Most gensets are in the neighborhood of 5% when operated as specified.

Loren_Amelang · January 16

Original poster here... This just gets more complex...

I called Costco web services, and their nearest store, and none of the 5KW+ models seem to be available in California now. (Even though the web sales pages accept my ZIP code and say they will ship to it. Guess the web devs haven't heard of CARB.)

I'm terrified of risking my inverter system testing any "<23%" generator. Pretty much convinced I only want an inverter generator. But the most attractive low cost model, Pulsar PGDA70BiSCO, would have to be shipped here, and they can't specify a carrier, and most freight companies won't come anywhere near my house. And I can't drive to meet them on the highway.

@Dave Angelini
"Most gensets are in the neighborhood of 5% when operated as specified."
Do you have a source for that? Does "as specified" include running only the charger side of a solar inverter?
Why do their specs then say 23%? Is that some kind of historical target for THD?

The Chargeverter sounds interesting, but it looks like 48V only. I suppose I shuld just replace my entire 24V system, but there is no chance of paying for that.

Maybe someone makes an engine generator with only a huge 24V DC output? I actually built one many uears ago - Honda gas engine coupled to a truck alternator. Can do 30A @ 28VDC. But like my Onan, it is about as ancient and worn out as I am. A new modern engine with a simple DC alternator making 50 ro 100 Amps would totally bypass the AC THD issues...

Dave Angelini · January 16

Take a drive to Nevada. We have no restrictions and even sell aviation hi octane fuel at Walmart.

I can post some locations but all of the gens that Bill posted and more are at Costco Carson City on
Old Creek road.

All of the Honda's including the one I use for clients EU 7000i are here, but pricey now as Bill said.
I would look at Harbor Freight. The link below is for a store in Carson Valley Nevada where we live.
If you use a Cali store you will not see this.
I hope the link works as the nanni state may be watching😉

https://www.harborfreight.com/generators-engines/generators.html?utm_source=internal+search&utm_medium=trending+now&utm_campaign=generators

Loren_Amelang · January 17

@Dave Angelini

Thanks for the Nevada clues - but my big problem with all of this is I'm 77 years old, nearly blind, can't drive at all. I depend on a few kind friends to bring my mail and a few groceries from shops they pass by, but asking for Nevada is out of the question.

Even getting things shipped to my house is a problem. Supposedly UPS can do 150 pound packages to my house, but most shippers will switch to "freight" far below there. And they "can't" tell you where the switch happens, or how far off the highway the freight guys will go. City people believe every service goes everywhere...

So much for "ageing in place"...

Maybe if I pick a little 50 pound generator it can be shipped here? And they're more likely to be CARB compliant... I only need it for solid weeks of no Sun, and it would be quieter, though running longer.

Wheelman55 · January 17

OP. Consider asking a local business to accept delivery for you. You would also want to give them the OK to refuse delivery if there is damage to the package.

We do this in Terlingua.

Good luck!

Dave Angelini · January 17

It is a good idea Pat, however the reason that folks in Cali come here (or anywhere out of Cali) is there is no choice and the gen can't be shipped anywhere in Cali unless the rules are broken or someone ships it from out of state without warranty or return if it does not work or fails early.

Aging in place and wildfire was why we left Cali. Miss the old place alot but love not having all the fire drama and brush maintenance for clearance. Also really good health care here and no income tax.

Maybe you can find a used gen from a local? Where are you BTW? You have an SW4024 right? Not a CSW 4024 right? The old SW 4024 is 120vac only and the CSW is either 120 or 240.

Loren_Amelang · 12:16AM

@Dave Angelini

"Aging in place and wildfire was why we left Cali. Miss the old place alot but love not having all the fire drama and brush maintenance for clearance. Also really good health care here and no income tax."

That day may well come for me, but I'm not willing to give up on my land yet.

"Where are you BTW? You have an SW4024 right? Not a CSW 4024 right? The old SW 4024 is 120vac only and the CSW is either 120 or 240."

I'm in Mendocino county CA, 12 direct miles from the ocean. Wonderful climate.
And I do have the CSW 4024, wired for 240V, to feed my deep well pump. Changing that would not be simple!

Checked the little easily shippable CARB, propane, inverter generators today. They tick every box except 240V. I guess most people don't need to hand carry a 240V source around. If you know of one, please share!

Otherwise I think I'll just fall back on my Honda gas engine coupled to a truck alternator. It does still work, it is just not fun to go fill the oil and gas and pull the starter in winter weather.

Maximum generator THD for input to inverter charger - Schneider SW4024 ?

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