voltage, but no amps showing on charge controllers

showme · June 2023

What is the proper way to troubleshoot for short circuits or mis-wiring for this type of problem? I'm getting the correct volts and amps at each individual module, but when i touch my multimeter (Fluke 115) to the input side of each breaker in the combiner to check the readings there, the meters lead arcs, whether checking volts or amps. I contacted Midnite Solar and sent the controllers in to have them checked out. They came back good, so they're saying i may have a short or something going on with the wiring (10awg pv wire to combiner box, 6awg to controller about 35' away, run inside seal-tite 3/4" conduit from top of pole to combiner, and from combiner to the DC disconnect box/charge controllers.) How would i go about troubleshooting this? (2 arrays with 12 panels each. LG 320's in series of 3 with 4 series paralleled at the combiner box. 3840w per array, 7,680 total). Thanks for any help on this. We're getting ready to build a house down there and this has thrown a wrench into the project. Thanks for any ideas. Lee

Dave Angelini · June 2023

A bad voltmeter could do this. Does it work right elsewhere? Try another?

You do know that amps are measured by breaking the circuit path and inserting the amp meter. You can't use a voltmeter in amp mode on a live circuit like you can a voltmeter?

Sorry but have to check on this, no offense! More details from you will help others here!

BB. · June 2023

Sorry to go back to basics... But just want to be sure (we are not there with you to see exactly what you are doing). Your meter:

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-115

And the user manual:

https://dam-assets.fluke.com/s3fs-public/110__117umeng0000_0.pdf?kuO8Q80mS6nSqKkZOd2JFMEnAStiGspq

As long as your meter is set to voltage (frequency, etc.), you should never be able to draw any arcs with the meter leads (short of one lead shorting two power terminals together) as long as the voltage is less than 600 Volts (this meter's max rating).

However, with many typical DMMs (Digital multi meters), there can be multiple lead connections. On this meter, there is a "COM" (Black--common) and an A (Amperes) and Voltage (type) measurements:

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/0h/i4tgerf40b6d.png

With this meter, if you had leads connected to COM and A, then that is configured for measuring (up to) 10 amperes. And the two leads are (more or less) a dead short between them.

If you are measuring current, then you have to "break" the circuit to test, and put A and COM across the break (in series) with the current flow.

If you are going to measure current, I highly recommend an AC+DC Current Clamp DMM. With these types of meters, you just have to "clip" the clamp around the cable to measure the current of... This clamp meters are very safe and easy to use. There is no need to cut the wire to measure the current. A couple of examples (note there are AC+DC Clamp meters--Useful for both AC and DC circuits. And AC only clamp meters--Work great on AC circuits, but not DC circuits):

https://www.amazon.com/UNI-T-Digital-Handheld-Resistance-Capacitance/dp/B0188WD1NE ("good enough for our needs")
https://www.amazon.com/Auto-Ranging-Resistance-Klein-Tools-CL800/dp/B019CY4FB4 (mid cost meter)

Again, sorry if you know all of this... But your description seems to indicate the meter is "shorting" your circuits (leads configured for Current Measurements, not Voltage measurements).

-Bill

showme · June 2023

Thanks guys, Yes, I'm aware of the fact that I can't use the amps without switching the hot lead over to the amperage input (took me a couple of fuses to learn that). From what you say, BB, I think my problem is that i probably checked it without pulling the wires out of the breaker and ground block. I've said it before, but electrical math has always been a mystery to me. When i took a DC electrical class and an Electrical Math class at San Juan College down in Farmington, NM 17 years ago, I was floored by the intense math the class presented. And I struggled to just "get it". I've been slowly (snails pace slowly), coming around to it ever since. I really envy you guys who have it down so well. BB, you've answered so many of my questions over time, but I have to admit, sometimes when i receive your informative replies, I have to re-read them, and sometimes just come back and study them for a while. I'm a pretty intelligent person, but this subject still confuses me regularly. Since the set up is 30 miles away at some property we own, I've even printed off the information and taken it with me (no cell signal yet, so I can't just get on my phone and read it). It sounds like I need to pull the wires I'm checking at the combiner box and check each series off the buss bar and ground block. And, being the geezer that i am (65 in a week or two), I probably did get an arc from my current check only, and not the voltage. Thanks, and I'll check this out asap. Lee

Dave Angelini · June 2023

You can save the info/ files to files or documents folder on your phone for access when there is not a signal level for cell service.
If the phone is an android, you can save a screen shot by pressing the volume down and power button at the same time. Save it to an email or a folder for reading later when there is no cell signal.

3 panels in series and 4 strings. You should be seeing around 105 vdc on each of the 4 strings. Are you?

boB · June 2023

Pictures and maybe a short video of what you are seeing might help ?

Even pictures of the screen. Drawing an arc with meter probes isn't good probably.

Is the CC a Classic or Kid or ???

boB

showme · June 2023

Once again, thank you for this information, Dave. Being the die hard curmudgeon that i am, I didn't even have a smart phone until a month or two ago. And I sure miss my old slide phone. I'm slowly learning how to work mine. It's an Android Moto 5. Boy, do i hate having to re-learn new technology! My son, who is the IT guy for a big company up in St. Louis just gave me a new computer due to my old Dell being outdated to the point of keeping me off this and many other sites for the last 6 months. I hate it because everything is different (old one- probably 20+ years old) is still Internet Explorer with Windows 7, but at least i can operate it. Anyway, thanks for telling me this. Hopefully, I can access that.

boB- I've got some pics from when the Classics were showing the 0 amps, but I'll have to locate them on my old computer and send them over to this one, then I'll post them. Yeah, the arcing made me wince. As a retired Ironworker and 40 year welder, as well as a former cable tv tech who had to climb poles and occasionally test for power on distribution boxes, I dread an arc anywhere except striking an arc for welding. (In the lineman's work, the three methods of checking for power on an open distribution box up on the line were the meter, which usually was in the truck when i found a problem. Then the "I'm not climbing back down this pole and up again just to get that meter!" solutions, neither good, were either stick my finger in there and get a buzz if it was powered, or a screwdriver to see if it arced. That method, though, could not only blow the fuse/breaker for that box, but any number of boxes down the line, which meant climbing multiple poles just to check and re-set them. And I hated sticking my finger in there, even if it was just a slight shock.
The two chargers are both Classic 150's, although due to a screw up on the order, one came as an SL, so it's the 'slave' in the Follow Me set up, which was ok'd by the MS tech I spoke with. The balance is listed below in my signature. Thanks, boB, for the offer of help. This will probably sound silly, but you and your brother have kind of been my idols from the beginning of my dream of doing this some 30 years ago. I intentionally traced down my set up because of a picture I found of Robyn's old Trace/Xantrex set up. Except for the cc's, mine is identical. The bulk of the system was bought from a guy who used it a year or two, but the inverters are new old stock i bought from a guy in New Mexico that decided to go a different route. Thanks for all your work in this field and the advances you've made. You're kind of a legend, bud. Lee

littleharbor2 · June 2023

Hi Lee..Been a while, good to see you here, well sort of anyway. I had a similar issue a few years ago with a friends system. Turned out I had reversed polarity on one of the strings in the combiner box. Any way you can test that with your multimeter? Set it for dc high voltage and see if you get a negative reading on the inputs at the combiner.

showme · June 2023

Hey, Michael! Good to be back, too! That's the first I've heard about reverse polarity on this. I will check it out, but whatever it is, it's affecting the readings on both classics, so that would be odd if it is. Not to say I can't mess two things up at once, but it's another avenue I can look into. I'm really hoping Dave and boB have the answer and it may just supposed to be like this. I've got to get back down there to check it out. Been kind of busy around the house for the last few days, not to mention (and I'm going to get teased about this) it's been in the 90's here in Missouri, so I've not 'forced' myself to get out in it. I know. It's hotter where you are, and a lot of other places, right now. I wouldn't have gotten away with this if I were still ironworking. I'm a little bit ashamed of myself! Hope you're doing well. Don't know if you remember, but i finally found the place that produces the Airpax pv shut off breakers to replace the original 60a with 80a. There's a 10 week lead time (they're made in Mexico and apparently only build them when orders come in), so I'm waiting on them now. And I did find another 250 with an intact switch paddle, so yours is now my official back up breaker. Thanks again for that. It let me get started and fired up. Hope all is well with you! It's nice to be back on here.

Dave Angelini · June 2023

Dave Angelini said:

3 panels in series and 4 strings. You should be seeing around 105 vdc on each of the 4 strings. Are you?

That should be quoting myself, +105V, +105V, +105V and +105V. No readings of -105V 😉😉😉😉

littleharbor2 · June 2023

Lee,
Best of luck tracing down the problem. Please let us know what it was when you get it straightened out.

The weather down here has been quite nice so far., High 80's, low 90's with low humidity. Sadly the swampy weather is right around the corner.

Take care. Nice chatting with you.

Marc Kurth · June 2023

littleharbor2 said:

Lee,
Best of luck tracing down the problem. Please let us know what it was when you get it straightened out.

The weather down here has been quite nice so far., High 80's, low 90's with low humidity. Sadly the swampy weather is right around the corner.

Take care. Nice chatting with you.

Do you get the late July through August monsoons?

boB · June 2023

Hi Lee ! Hey, if you are ever up in the pacific northwest (Washington state), or anyone else here for that matter, come on up for the nickel tour ! There are some other folks here from OutBack, Trace and Magnum as well you may know or have heard of.

boB

littleharbor2 · June 2023

Marc Kurth said:

littleharbor2 said:

Lee,
Best of luck tracing down the problem. Please let us know what it was when you get it straightened out.

The weather down here has been quite nice so far., High 80's, low 90's with low humidity. Sadly the swampy weather is right around the corner.

Take care. Nice chatting with you.

Do you get the late July through August monsoons?

Not necessarily, we're the source of the Monsoons that hit the Desert Southwest. We will get some rain and have incredible lightning storms. I watched a super storm that went on for close to an hour where the lightning was CONSTANT, literally never went dark, even for a second. Crazy.

littleharbor2 · June 2023

boB said:

Hi Lee ! Hey, if you are ever up in the pacific northwest (Washington state), or anyone else here for that matter, come on up for the nickel tour ! There are some other folks here from OutBack, Trace and Magnum as well you may know or have heard of.

boB

I'm flying up to the Tri-Cities area in about 3 weeks. Bummer it's in the wrong corner of the state. That sounds tempting. Been a big fan for a long time.

Dave Angelini · June 2023

Don't tell Marc about the Hurricanes on Baja Mike. I know you are pretty safe that far up the baja because that was where we would go to get away from the beasts. Chubascos and nasty thunderstorms into October.

littleharbor2 · June 2023

Dave Angelini said:

Don't tell Marc about the Hurricanes on Baja Mike. I know you are pretty safe that far up the baja because that was where we would go to get away from the beasts. Chubascos and nasty thunderstorms into October.

OK Dave it'll be our little secret. But I gotta say we got hit pretty hard last Sept by Kay. It hugged the Pacific coast then decided to cross over the peninsula and hit us head on. The only saving grace was that it lost some steam while over land. It still kicked our butts and brought a huge tide on top of our already big tides.The second photo is the same area at a medium high tide.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/le/5n03c46mpd4e.jpg

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/dm/2t3eaxu9ai5d.jpg

Dave Angelini · June 2023

Great shots ! Yeooww. No reason / Hurricane season !

littleharbor2 · June 2023

That's the Santa Maria Back Bay. And for a day, the Santa Maria inland sea and Santa Maria Island.

Dave Angelini · June 2023

I was looking back at our log and we were about 70 miles short of there because of our 6' draft. We did drive up with a taxi to trade a case of empty Pacifico's in for the full version.
Ok maybe more than a case. They still do that? Cool place for sure. Maybe not at this time of day.... Cheers!

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/7j/b54b4rlcpkvo.jpg

littleharbor2 · June 2023

Dave Angelini said:

I was looking back at our log and we were about 70 miles short of there because of our 6' draft. We did drive up with a taxi to trade a case of empty Pacifico's in for the full version.
Ok maybe more than a case. They still do that? Cool place for sure. Maybe not at this time of day.... Cheers!

70 miles , Not at Puertecitos? Anyway I understand the shallow draft thing. Very few sailboats up this far. You can go out 4 - 5 miles and still be in 30 feet of water.
I think they still do the bottle exchange.Most beer is in non refundable bottles now. Funny, we used to take cases of empties home to the states and do the exchange on returning in San Felipe being that we are south of San Felipe. The officials at the US border knew of this practice and wouldn't bother checking all the boxes. They would just ask, empties?

Dave Angelini · June 2023

The bottle exchange was a big cost savings back in the 90's. Glad it still is there! In some places the beer was cheaper than drinking water

showme · June 2023

Thanks, Micheal, and I will certainly report back. Your weather is nicer than ours at present! We topped out at 102 yesterday. 99 today supposedly, with a real feel of 106. My sister in Sun City, AZ (Phoenix) loves this stuff, but she works in an office. I don't see how the Ironworkers down there deal with the hot steel we have to sit on and wrap our arms and legs around to work. It must be like hell on the steel down there. Those pics are something else! I'm assuming everyone has a boat as an escape route when this happens??

bOB- Thanks for the invitation! I wish i would have been aware of it a few years ago. My daughter used to live in Shoreline when she worked at TCS World Travel on Elliot Street up there. We came up for a week about 6 years ago around the 4th of July. It just happened to be the hottest 4th on record as of then when it got to something like 99* when we were there. That's the kind of luck I have. Then she and our two other kids gave us an Alaskan Cruise on Norwegian out of Seattle 4 years ago for our anniversary present. The Seattle area is a beautiful place. We'll have to come back up there and take you up on the tour. That would be great! And to see all my heroes in one place would be even better.

littleharbor2 · June 2023

Dave Angelini said:

The bottle exchange was a big cost savings back in the 90's. Glad it still is there! In some places the beer was cheaper than drinking water

Cheaper and SAFER. Throughout history beer has been safer than water. Plus, I think it was Ben Franklin that once said, "Beer is proof that god loves you and want's you to be happy"

littleharbor2 · June 2023

showme said:
Those pics are something else! I'm assuming everyone has a boat as an escape route when this happens??

That island looking shot was a real high tide along with storm surge from a rare (in our area) hurricane. That particular cluster of homes does get closed off to wheeled vehicles though during our 18 to 20 foot tides. Funny, when we get a minus 3 or 4 foot tide you can drive nearly 2 miles out where 6 hours before was well under water.

Dave Angelini · June 2023

Tourista illness was often thought to be caused by Ice

.

It also was on the mainland and south. Never on the Baja, back then. If you took a few weeks to acclimate you were fairly safe. Hence the name tourista and not there long enough to let the body acclimate.

The tides are often your friend. Go to the Caribbean and it is often inches of range to a couple feet.

showme · December 2023

Well, it's been 6 months since I've been on here, but I just found this old thread, so I thought I'd give an update. I finally got those PV breakers in, but not in the ten weeks they told me it would take. I think it was another month after I called them at 10 weeks. But they're in and when I fired the system up, everything seems to be working great. I had one guy on another forum mention something that set me back a bit. He told me that if the batteries were full, and not charging, that this may have been the "problem". As in, there aren't any amps being shown because the chargers aren't charging, they're resting. Whether it was the new breakers (the 110 breakers were new, too) or something else, I'm now getting amps and watts showing on both classics, except when the batts are charged up, and then the master goes into 'resting' with no amps/watts showing, and the follower, although showing 'absorb' when it's doing this instead of 'float', it kicks in if I turn on the shed lights or hook up the 5th wheel. (I'm leaving it unplugged until I get a new deep cell battery for it). Yeah, I was about ready to give up for awhile when it wasn't doing what i thought it should. Anyway, it's on and pumping out juice. The Trace SW5548's are blinking their 'search' lights every 3 seconds since we're not down there most of the time, the classic cc's are blinking their blue LED, and all is well. I got on here to ask another question, but now I've forgotten what that question was while I've been writing this. Man, getting old is tough!

littleharbor2 · December 2023

Funny, it'll come to you.
Good to hear the system is working well for you. Those old Trace inverters are real workhorses.

voltage, but no amps showing on charge controllers

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