How to wire dual SW5548'sTrace generator controls?

showme · September 2022

Ok, I received a great diagram from RCinFL the other day that shows me where the inverters wire to the generator. Now I need to know how to wire it through the RY pins in order to control (turn on and off automatically) the auto start of the generator. They sure didn't give much information on this subject in the original manuals. They leave a lot to be desired. If anyone is able to educate me on these pins, I would surely appreciate it. Thanks, Lee

Vic · September 2022

Hi Lee, just saw the Post, above,

I believe that the Xantrex SW Plus inverters used exactly the same switch/relay setup, in the Option, called the "GSM". This function was removed from the Trace SWs, and placed into a small box with the relays and switches/LEDs, etc, as I understand it.

Have you looked at the docs for it (?):
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/387901/Xantrex-Gsm-Rev-A.html

Just a thought, Good Luck, back to rebuilding our Power Room, Vic

showme · September 2022

Thanks, Vic. I thought the small spade connectors next to the inverters AC out (and apparently generator input) marked RY7 and RY8 were the connections for the genny controls(?). But there sure doesn't seem to be any complete information in the manual about how to wire it. My first confusion was, "how does the wiring get from the AC Disconnect (where the wiring for the generator enters and connects to the two by-pass and output breakers)?" On all the illustrations in all the manuals I have (power panel, AC Disconnect, Trace inverter) only show two sets of conduit, and then the drawings in the manuals show the wiring exiting the AC disconnect as 3 wires to each inverter. I see no wires that would indicate that they are from the generator to the L2 IN and neutral lines. It seems there should be a set of wires for the generator (L2 IN) and AC OUT. I'm not finding anything on this. RCinFL sent me a diagram that shows me that there are absolutely wires (and where they connect in the inverters), but it shows the wires going to the generator into the 30amp plug on the generator, not into the controls that would start and stop the generator.

I've actually found differences in different versions of Trace's SW5548 manuals. The one that i have from the later model 2006 and the two NOS 1999 inverters have a few things that aren't included in the other. Regardless, neither one of them have very in depth directions on routing the L2 wires, in or out. For instance, although I know now where the incoming wires from L2/gen connect in the inverters, but where are they coming from? Shouldn't they be coming from the AC Disconnect, which looks to me to be where the generator comes into the system? And then, how do i wire the controls from the RY7 and 8 pins?

Vic · September 2022

Hi Lee,

Curious, I did not know, that the Trace SW 5548 were available after the introduction of the Xantrex SW Plus 5548s. I ordered four of the SW Plus 5548s, in July/August 2005, and they were delivered within a week or so. A very finished product, with a beefy mounting plate, Long conduit boxes for the AC, and DC sides or the inverters, and designed to accommodate Stacked inverters, for 240 VAC. It felt like, that the 5548 Plus had been on the market for several years, at that point.

Schneider/Xantrex owned an interest in Trace, for some time, at that point, was the rumor, perhaps this could explain the co-existence of the two very similar product lines ... dunno ...

On the Pluses, the 120 VAC cables from the inverter, can connect to the Optional Inverter Bypass breaker assembly. On the Pluses, this assembly was in the AC Conduit box. 6 AWG cables from the inverter/s came from a terminal block under an access cover, on the left side of the inverter.

Am in the middle of a project, and Rain is forecast for tomorrow, so will think, and search a bit more later. FWIW, Vic

showme · September 2022

Vic- As i was typing 2006, I hesitated and wondered- Is it 2006 or not? Since it's the "used" one from the complete single inverter system I bought, it's going to be our back-up unit, and it's still here at the house. It is, in fact, a Xantrex inverter, and was built in May 2006. The two NOS Trace's I have are mounted on the panel, which I'm getting wired right now, and are the subject of my questions. But, yep, the two Trace's are '99's, and the Xantrex is a 2006.

Per the wiring you describe, that's exactly what my manuals are showing in the illustrations. I'm assuming here, because the drawings are in black and white (the wires are shaded with different markings for variable lines), that the three wires per each inverter are red, black and white, with the white carrying the neutral. And the manuals also show the generator entering the breakers on the right side as incoming L2 IN Hot's, plus the neutral and ground.

So! If these wires, coming from the generator, are wired into the AC Disconnect bypass breakers, and the three wires coming from the AC out inverter connections (although I can only see TWO wire connection points that would leave the inverter terminal block {L2 Hot out and Neutral out}), then where do the two wires, L2/generator IN and L2/generator neutral IN come from? I'm just not finding the routing of these wires anywhere at all.

littleharbor2 · September 2022

One quick question. You keep referring to L2. Are you meaning AC2 in, as opposed to AC1 in? The inverters are single phase and don't really have inputs for a second Hot leg, as in 220 split phase. Maybe I'm wrong and the 5548 has provisions for this.

showme · September 2022

No, the grid is considered L1 and the generator is considered L2. The wiring coming from the generator enters the AC Disconnect box and is fed in to the triple breaker sets there. I'd put on some pics, but I'm using my wife's laptop since mine is too antiquated to get this forum anymore.

Actually, one of the few things I left wired in the original power panel I got was the incoming wires from the generator that was previously used with it. The triple breaker I got from you, for the second inverter, has one leg coming into it and the other leg is running into the original triple breaker. I've read with the dual inverters it can accept 240 split, so I'm assuming the PO was running something like that. There are 4 wires coming in, including ground and neutral. The two other legs connect into the right side of the breakers, with the lines from the inverters connecting into the left side of the breakers. Oddly enough, to me anyway, the AC output wires are running out of the right side, too, right next to the incoming generator lines. (next breaker lug over, not on top of each other.) I'll get some pics on here to clarify it a bit. I've spent the last few days tearing off and re roofing a slide out on our 5th wheel down at the property. I'm kind of scatter brained right now.

littleharbor2 · September 2022

showme said:

No, the grid is considered L1 and the generator is considered L2. The wiring coming from the generator enters the AC Disconnect box and is fed in to the triple breaker sets there. I'd put on some pics, but I'm using my wife's laptop since mine is too antiquated to get this forum anymore.

I'm referring to the AC connections in the SW 5548 only. This is probably where my confusion is coming from, you are referring to external connections,. Sorry.

Vic · September 2022

showme said:

No, the grid is considered L1 and the generator is considered L2. The wiring coming from the generator enters the AC Disconnect box and is fed in to the triple breaker sets there. I'd put on some pics, but I'm using my wife's laptop since mine is too antiquated to get this forum anymore.

Actually, one of the few things I left wired in the original power panel I got was the incoming wires from the generator that was previously used with it. The triple breaker I got from you, for the second inverter, has one leg coming into it and the other leg is running into the original triple breaker. I've read with the dual inverters it can accept 240 split, so I'm assuming the PO was running something like that. There are 4 wires coming in, including ground and neutral. The two other legs connect into the right side of the breakers, with the lines from the inverters connecting into the left side of the breakers. Oddly enough, to me anyway, the AC output wires are running out of the right side, too, right next to the incoming generator lines. (next breaker lug over, not on top of each other.) I'll get some pics on here to clarify it a bit. I've spent the last few days tearing off and re roofing a slide out on our 5th wheel down at the property. I'm kind of scatter brained right now.

Hi Lee,

The setup here, is similar to yours. We ARE running the SW+5548s Series-Stacked for 240 VAC. IIRC, you were looking to Parallel Stack a pair, but that seems to me to be a bit painful, why not just look for a series stacking cable (or make one), and run the inverter output into a traditional Split Phase Main Panel, and be done with it. You are not required to have 240 VAC loads, but it is there, and split phase, phase-synchronous power when/if you need it.

In any case, can I provide any info to you on wiring the Inverter Bypass switch, or anything else?

If you have the SW+ 5558 manual, the wiring example is probably there.

The bypass switch does have those little siamese cable connector doodads, that connect to a breaker terminal, and accept two #6 AWG cables, and are Code-Compliant. Have never seen these used before. IIRC, there was some Discussion, here, on those ... perhaps, you were in that one, too.

Please let me know what you might need. The schedule is a bit screwy, for the next week or, two. Good Luck, Vic

showme · September 2022

Sorry about that Mike, I've been so into wiring the AC Disconnect box and seeing L1 and L2 I've got it locked in my mind. The L1 is the incoming grid connection and the L2 is the incoming generator connection. And, yes, the AC input and output are marked at the AC side of the inverter, not L1 and L2. AC1 would be grid power and AC2 is the generator.

I started writing this two nights ago and thought I'd include a pic of the illustrations that I've been using, which give me parts of the picture but leave some points unexplained regarding the AC out to the AC Disconnect box. Then i realized I've got those illustrations taped to the wall of the shed down at the property. I went down there yesterday to get them and do some work, but the one that I wanted to reference that I'd previously color penciled in for clarity wasn't there. And all the manuals I had down there don't include it. So I brought them all home and started perusing them to see if i could find the original, but what i found is even better.

It seems the two manuals for the original Trace Inverters and the later Trace/Xantrex are a little different, in that, the Xantrex manual is almost twice the length of the Trace manual. Trace has around 87 pages, and Xantrex has 142. And toward the back of the Xantrex manual I believe I found what I'm looking for. It's a full schematic of the wiring routes of a dual inverter, 240v generator system on pg 122. Like I said, what I couldn't see was A) where do the AC2 lines coming into the inverter(s) originate and, B ) how (where) are they wired into the system at that point ? Also, C) Since the manual for the AC Disconnect box shows 6 wires coming up and into the bypass breakers, and there are only an AC OUT and a Neutral OUT coming from each inverter, what are the other two wires?

/.l

The following pics are the one's showing the 3 wires (one neutral and two different lines from each (I assume), with the two what i would call hot lines(?) which, even though they are shown with different markings for different matched wires, the manual doesn't say which is what or where they originate from. (The colored in illustration I had made was just to make the print easier to read while i was wiring them up, but I haven't located it yet)

There are two AC OUTs on the inverter, but 3 wires enter the AC Disconnect box. And if the L2 IN from the generator are run into the bypass breaker, then what is feeding the AC IN and Neutral IN at the inverter input?? I think the above schematic answers these questions, although the one thing that glares at me is the fact that the AC 2 line from the generator doesn't pass through the bypass breaker at all, just the AC1 line from the grid. Maybe the previous owner was grid tied and not hooked up to a generator?? That would explain the 4 wires coming into the AC Disconnect box and running into the bypass breaker, I'm thinking. But at least, I think, I'm getting closer. I'm sure sorry I'm not doing a better job of explaining this, guys. I'm trying, but one of my biggest problems I've had in decoding this are the 24/7 headaches from my injury. Once I start getting into the deeper parts and my head starts spinning trying to figure out what i just read, that's when the headaches kick into high gear (near migraine level), and pull off until it subsides. I use to take opiates (Norco 10 milligrams) 3 times a day, until i discovered Kratom and Cannabis will kill the pain without the hydrocodone negative effects. Thank God for natural remedies! But, anyway, I think I'm about to understand all this. Sorry it took so long to get a reply on here. I see i still have at least one reply from Vic to read, too. Thanks again for everybody's patience with me. This is a lot tougher than it seemed it would be. But I'm hopeful!

showme · September 2022

Vic- Thanks very much for the offer and advice! My inverters aren't the SW+'s, but I'm guessing they're nearly identical aside from some updates. Yeah, I decided a few years ago that parallel inverters wasn't going to work for me, mostly due to not being able to find a cable for that. I also doubt that I'll ever need 11kw of power at any given time. (I have a Miller welder with an 11kw generator if i need that much at once). Also, thanks to JB Inverters online, I bought two series cables and decided to go with that. The second one for a back up, since it took me a while to even find those. I'm a "back-up freak". I guess that's my boy scouts training surfacing. Be Prepared! But, yes, thanks for your offer to help. I'll get with you as soon as I get lost again, which should be real soon.

Lee

littleharbor2 · September 2022

Lee.

"There are two AC OUTs on the inverter"

This is what I'm getting confused with. The inverters have a single AC out and two AC in.

Vic · September 2022

Lee, thanks for the added info.

You said, ... "the one thing that glares at me is the fact that the AC 2 line from the generator doesn't pass through the bypass breaker at all, just the AC1 line from the grid ... ".

Yes, if one needs 240 VAC in inverter-bypass mode, a second Bypass Breaker assembly would be required for the second inverter.

IMO, generally, a generator is the source of Bypass power, as there is an internal transfer switch (in the inverter) which allows transferring twix the Grid, and the inverter AC output. BUT, if the inverter/s is/are broken, this transfering may not work. We use a Honda EU6500 is as the smaller genset, connedted to the inverter;s AC1 (Grid) input, and the large genset connected to AC2 into the inverters, this works very well.

Thanks, too for clearing up what Inverters that you have. So your Xantrex SW 5548s DO HAVE AGS built inot the inverters ?

Later, Vic

showme · September 2022

Mike- as soon as i re-read that, I knew I hadn't clarified it very well. What I meant was the AC HOT OUT and it's Neutral OUT. Sorry. And, yes, there are two IN's for the grid and generator. I won't be using the grid at all on this set up.

Vic- Sorry for the confusion. First, the two NOS inverters I have on the power panel and will be using are both Trace Engineering inverters from 1999. Since they have been in their shipping boxes since 'birth', I'm pretty confident they'll be in good working order. But the used set up I bought that included the complete power panel and one inverter is what contained the Xantrex SW5548, circa 2006. It will be our back up inverter, should we ever need it, and though it only had a year or two of use on it when I bought the system, I'll still be taking it down to an inverter and PV repair place in White House, TN to have them go over it and make sure all is well with it. And, yes, they do have AGS, which is why I was asking, at some other point, what is necessary to wire up the R7 and R8 connections to run the generator. I think i may have found the answers to how to do that in the Xantrex manual, too. I can't believe i didn't find this earlier when looking, but after opening up the two "new" Trace inverters and finding their manuals in their packing, I switched to just using that. It wasn't until I found the "old" Xantrex SW manual and flipped from front to back that I found the schematic above, along with an in-depth explanation of the generator controls wiring.

I'm still wondering about how the remaining original wires hooked up in the AC Disconnect are suppose to be used. It's now looking like their purpose was grid tie, not a generator. It's been so long since I bought the set up that I can't remember everything the seller told me. He mentioned generator capability when we went and picked it up over in Illinois. But he mentioned a lot of things while my brother and I loaded it into the trailer, so he may have had it grid tied. It would almost have to have been since it only came with 960w of panels. I'm getting ready to check and see if those wires that are still connected as they came from the seller are possibly wired as L1 IN instead of L2 IN, but it's hard to imagine as many times as i read those prints that i wouldn't have caught this before. On the other hand, when i bought the system, it was a single inverter set up, so that might have been what he had.

showme · October 2022

Success! After spending the summer trying to figure out where the wires from the AC Disconnect Box run, including how the generator wires are routed, I came across an illustration in the Trace Engineering IPP (integrated power panel) manual that, I believe, answers my questions. I must have skimmed over this page 10 times, and until last night I couldn't figure out why I hadn't caught it. I realize now that I had pretty much ignored anything in the in the manuals for the DR inverters and 'single inverter' set ups. My mistake. This pic was under single inverter systems, although I found something similar the next page on dual DR's, but it was a little more obscure.

What I found is that the generator (and grid, if you're using it- we'll be off grid, so we won't), both enter into the AC Disconnect box, or as Vic informed me, aka ACCB, where they are connected to the right side of the bypass breaker(s) at the center connection of the triple pole breaker. The generator then exits the bypass breaker on the center of the left side of the breaker and runs to the AC2 IN (generator) in the inverter. This explains the second wire showing on the AC Disconnect illustration in my previous thread. Both of the similar wires(marked as same color by hash marks) that are shown, although it's indiscernible to tell where they initiate. The illustration I found on page 15 that's shown here lets me know that the second mystery lines are the hot line coming in from the grid and generator connections and feeding the inverters, and are run through the center bypass section of the triple breakers. Up until finding this pic, I could not figure out how to wire the connections in the inverters AC side.

Thanks to all who have attempted to help me on this. As I've told Vic and RCinFL, I've spent all summer trying to figure this out. Hours reading and searching for something that would give me the information. I guess I've learned a lesson- Don't ignore the rest of a manual that deals with things that are secondary to what I'm working on! It was there all the time, I was just skipping over it. Although Trace isn't around anymore and Xantrex has long since been Schneider, I really think Trace and Xantrex blew it when they didn't put these important notes in their inverter and AC Disconnect manuals. had to find it in a Trace Engineering IPP manual, and it wasn't even in "most" of the illustrations, let alone all of them. But, it's all history now that I've found it.
I'd like to thank lillteharbor2, Vic and RCinFL specifically for all their help and patience with my questions and replies when i couldn't grasp what they were talking about. This forum is a real life saver! Thanks everybody. I'll let you know what happens after i go down to the property today. I still have to get my new batteries before i can actually test it, but at least the stumbling block of wire routing. Lee Butcher

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/vb/dbt5n2cg9u8s.jpg

Vic · October 2022

Hi Lee,

Thank you very much for posting your successful results of all of your diligent effort with the wiring of the Bypass Breakers for the SW and SW+ inverter/chrgers.

That pictorial diagram of the Bypass Breaker wiring, for the benefit of those who have similar questions, will be very helpful to others with these inverters, and that diagram seems to be very, very difficult to find when searching the Web.

Take care, and hope that you never need to use the bypass function, due to any inverter failures, or troubles.

Vic

showme · October 2022

Thanks, Vic, and I hope this helps others, too, but I'm not sure how many will be needing to re-wire/wire one of these systems ever. Even though it's been a headache and a PITA, it's still been interesting and even fun at times. I like mysteries, until I can't solve them! I'm just glad the previous owner of the used set up i bought held on to all of his manuals, and that this forum is here to check in with.

Per yesterday's work day at the property, besides finally finishing up work on our 5th wheel (new scare light and rubber seals on the new window I put in the dining area, after tearing off a slide out roof and re-doing it, sealing the trailer roof and installing new roof ladder bolts), I got back in and began wiring what hasn't been done on the inverter to AC Disconnect. I decided to pull the old "generator" (probably grid) wire stubs that only came about 18" out of the box with a section of 4 wire/ 6 gauge service entrance wire I had stockpiled. When installing the new wire, I had a heck of a time trying to get the neutral wire in the old neutrals place, since the old wire was in the lower back spot, so i ended up pulling all of them out and re-positioning them. Since all of that is positioned behind the bypass breakers, I had them off their mounts and hanging out of the front of the box. It seems that even though the casing of the new wire shows 6ga/4, the neutral doesn't want to fit in the same hole that all the other 6 gauge wires are mounted in. Is it possible that the neutrals in service wire are actually larger than 6 gauge?? The worst thing about it is there is a larger, maybe 2/0, lug on the far side of the neutral block, and before cutting the extra wire off that neutral wire, I thought about running it around and back in to that point. But I made the bad decision to "keep it neat" and enter all the neutrals on the same side, cut it to length for that, and i think I goofed. As it was getting too dark to work in the shed last night, amid the dirty words that were flying around in there, I couldn't manage to make that wire fit into the 6 gauge spot! Damn! I quit for the evening and will get it today when i go down (I hope). If not, I'll be disconnecting the other three wires, and anything else in the way, strip some more casing of the cable, pull it in enough to make the neutral on the other side, re-cut the other wires and re-connect them, then re-tighten the other 3 wires, re=tighten those touchy bypass breaker wires, and hopefully close up the AC Disconnect box and never open it again. Hopefully. I have to say, Mike, that bypass breaker I got from you is just what i needed (and the spare, too), but those screws for fastening the wires to the breakers being on the back side of the breakers is a real pain in the butt!! Who ever designed a breaker to have connections made from the rear of the breaker should be tarred and feathered! I'm using a mirrored welding hood filter (lens), a flashlight and a stubby screwdriver to make those connections. I still don't understand the reasoning of making them like that. But, they're better than nothing! And i still have the original for the other inverter, which makes it almost a joy to check and tighten. Anyway, I'm almost there with the wiring of the board now. Time to order batteries. I've been looking at Kilovault and Simpliphi batteries, but I saw a video by Will Prouse on youtube where he does a test and review of some SOK batteries, and I'm leaning toward them now. They seem to have a great customer service team, too. After all this I could use that. Thanks! Lee

littleharbor2 · October 2022

Have had a couple of these for years. Thanks to Lees post above with the illustration I just realized what they are. They take the triple breaker inverter bypass cluster.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/99/iqdnm7jesx5v.jpg

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.

showme · October 2022

Have you always had those breakers with the connection screws facing out? The two I got from you were facing the back of the box. But I've got some new ones arriving tomorrow, so I'll have the original from the set up I bought for a back up. I'd offer to send the others back to you, but it looks like you've got a pretty good supply there! I guess I need to finally try to figure out how to sell on ebay. I've got almost ten random breakers I've acquired that I'll never use. Is there a "Wanted/for sale" section on this forum??

littleharbor2 · October 2022

showme said:

Have you always had those breakers with the connection screws facing out? The two I got from you were facing the back of the box. But I've got some new ones arriving tomorrow, so I'll have the original from the set up I bought for a back up. I'd offer to send the others back to you, but it looks like you've got a pretty good supply there! I guess I need to finally try to figure out how to sell on ebay. I've got almost ten random breakers I've acquired that I'll never use. Is there a "Wanted/for sale" section on this forum??

That picture was from when we were trying to figure out which you wanted. You decided on the din rail mounted ones. Here is the stab loc breakers in the mounting block, showing upper lugs and lower (breaker) lugs. Sorry for the duplicate image. Can't figure outhow to remove

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/mj/aotvjhopkq8n.jpg

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/yg/3mgcrzubmgqv.jpg

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/wm/bz9i6i1ggmw0.jpg

showme · October 2022

Ahh! That's right, I forgot about that (and couldn't tell from the pics). I remember now. That detail has left me with a set of 250A DC breakers that I ordered on Ebay after I failed to notice that they had rear bolt on connections instead of DIN's. Thanks for reminding me, MIke. Anyway, the new ones are going to be here tomorrow, so I'll be down there getting them installed while the DIN mount is still hanging out in space. I was down there yesterday long enough to pick up some tools to do a project at my daughters house before the weather changes.

Just to make you feel better, we've been waking up to temps in the low to mid-20's the last few days here in southeast Missouri, Mike. I think our high yesterday was 50. But it wasn't unpleasant, with low humidity and clear sunny skies. But I did get the winter clothes out the other day. Unfortunately, we've had nearly no rain for the last 3 weeks, so the changing of the leaves is going from green to a quick yellow or red straight to brown here this year. I was using the torch at the property yesterday to fab a hand rail for my daughter's front steps, and the grass under the welding table (still haven't built my shop yet) kept catching on fire and taking off, I was doing some quick step stomping. But I decided to hold off on finishing the final wiring until the new bypass breakers get here, hopefully today or tomorrow. Then, on top of all that, I need to rent an excavator and dig a trench for 400' of water line from our well to my wife's garden plot, which lies just in front of the solar arrays. Right now I've got a roll of about 450' of 1" water line sitting still coiled, coming up out of the ground from where we installed the well and hydrant this summer, and the other line leading to our 500 gal above ground water tank, which needs buried down to where the shop will sit. Wish I already had the 600' of heavy gauge wire that will be the run from the arrays to the future house, so I could just bury it all at once, but I don't and that water line has water in it and needs buried before we get into the days long sub-freezing temps. I'm also getting ready to cut a couple dozen pines and cedars down that I've tagged. Some that are early and late day sunblockers for the panels, and some that need to go before the house is built. All which will be run through my neighbors saw mill for lumber for the house's interior walls. And fall is also when Verla and I cut and daub every alder tree we can find with herbicide to keep them from taking over the open, sunny spots they love to invade. And I've got a water pump to change in my truck. Man, I better get off here and get my butt to work! Daylight is burning!!

Geez, I'm sorry for going off track on this thread! I started thinking about my to-do list and started typing without thinking. But, per the breakers, I just figured I'd forgotten to mention DIN rails when I saw the pics, and besides, I would have taken anything that works, so I'm happy. And you definitely helped me out, as I've been able to see how it's set up and route the wires. And they would have worked had i not found these new ones. Thanks again, bud! Lee

How to wire dual SW5548'sTrace generator controls?

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