Overcoming the 120% Rule by Upgrading Panel to 400 Amp but Keeping Service at 200 Amp

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DIYMike
DIYMike Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 4
So...like everyone else I was first thrilled about the prospects of DIY solar, then bewildered by it given so many complexities.  I've actually figured almost all of them out with study.  One of those complexities or really limiters that I ran into as a DIYer and for which I cannot find an elegant solution (like having fun with a drug that won't also make me sick) was the limits of back feed on a bus in the breaker panel, given the good old 120% rule.  Sure you can do a line tap to get around the 120% rule, it but that approach presents other issues including costs, complexities and limits.  Sure you can derate your service breaker to be able to back feed more amps onto the same bus bar, but of course that has its issues.  So neither of these approaches is elegant.

So here's what I'm thinking to get around the limits of the 120% rule on a 200 amp service panel when I need to output at least 126amps from the combined AC output of 2x Sol-Ark 12K inverters into the main panel and at the same time not violate the 120% rule on a 200 amp service panel which limits me to only a 40 amp back feed breaker.  Okay, I'm not really getting around the 120% rule here, I'm just making it work without upgrading my service to greater than 200amps or derating my service breaker or doing a line tap.  Here's what I'm thinking as an approach and I need your feedback of why it will or won't work or meet the NEC or Southern California Edison's requirements:

  1. Keep the 200amp 240v Single Phase service.
  2. Change the breaker panel to a 400amp 240v Single Phase panel (not increasing the service from the Grid, or the service feeder breaker from 200amps, just changing the bus bars to support 400amps);
  3. Install a 200amp service feeder circuit breaker on the 400amp panel which will limit current flow in either direction from or to the Grid through the bus bars to 200amps;
  4. Be able to back feed from the inverters via a back feed breaker 200 maximum amps back to the Grid.  That is to say, at no time will the back feed through the 200amp service feeder breaker on the 400amp panel be greater than 200amps.  And, in this configuration the total amount of amps on the bus bar could be 480amps (relative to the 120% rule).

So, with the above setup.  I could back feed the 126amps or even up to 200amps if I added more inverters without violating the 120% rule and not exceed the service feeder conductor limits of 200 amps.

Only problem is - I don't know if it is allowed by NEC code and/or whether SCE will allow me to do it.   Thoughts and assistance appreciated as this seems pretty straight forward to me and less expensive than upgrading both the service and panel to 400amps (as I'm just upgrading the panel to 400amps to be able to back feed as much as possible up to 200amps on a 200amp service).

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    Another option--If you only need to feed 26 amps of solar... And like most people, you never use anywhere near 200 amps for your home's loads, you can just change the main panel breaker to 180 amps... That gives you 40 amps for solar and 180 amps for the "rest of the home" @ 240 VAC.

    And welcome to the forum.
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DIYMike
    DIYMike Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 4
    edited May 2021 #3
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    I need to back feed 126 (not 26) amps.  My electrical bill is around $500 a month - we have a very big home - and I'm trying to Grid Zero.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    By the way, made stupid math errors in my above post--Still does not address your 130 Amp GT solar feed question).

    California (are you in southern California?) is slowly (or more quickly) becoming "less friendly" for off grid solar... I am in Northern California (PG&E) and they are changing the rate plans to Time of Use... Where TOU peak/partial peak is in the range of 4/5pm to 9/10pm -- Pushing peak charges to when the sun does not shine. (and something like $0.20 off peak and $0.40 peak / kWH)...

    https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/how-rates-work/rate-changes/e6/time-of-use-plan-e6.page

    And Hawaii+Nevada have either made new GT Solar illegal or at least uneconomic.

    Generally--Highly suggest that you look at conservation first... Insulation, new A/C / Heat Pump system, reducing energy consumption, etc... In our area, that would be going to natural gas for heating/cooking/hot water--But we have some "forward thinking cities" that are making new natural gas connection illegal, and possibly requiring existing N.G. to be pulled out of the home (in the next decades). And burning wood is strongly discouraged (smoke pollution).

    Have you checked with your utility? Installations over 10 kWatt (at least in California) can trigger a whole bunch of other issues--From a utility review of your local distribution system (large enough to take your solar feed combined with other GT systems in your area) to different rules/plans for "commercial" GT Solar generator requirements. And, at best, they will only "guarantee" you 10 years in your rate plan before they reserve the right to make massive changes (been there, done that).

    Don't get me wrong--GT Solar can still save money in expensive power states like California--But they do keep placing road blocks in our path. Conservation is a great place to start... For folks that have never really looked at conservation before--It is not unusual for folks to reduce there electric bill by 1/2 -- Before GT Solar.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DIYMike
    DIYMike Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 4
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    Appreciate the feedback but would like to know if my approach would work.  Will definitely review the articles.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    A 400 Amp panel with a 200 amp main breaker--As I understand the code (not that I am a code expert), that should work fine with your ~130 Amp GT solar feed (200a + 130 < 400a (or 480a gt solar)... So you should be fine.

    The 120% rule was just a code "work around" for existing homes adding GT Solar so they did not have to change out their main panel (as I understand).

    The other "requirement" is to install the GT Solar feed breakers at the opposite end of the bus bars from the Main Breaker... That way the Main+Solar current feeds do not add and exceed the bus bar limits for your loads.

    One thing to watch out for... Check the line voltage at your home... If you have a high line voltage (say much over 250 VAC), you could have a voltage rise (aka voltage drop) issue with 130 Amps of GT solar--The voltage rise could trip the ~260-264 VAC max line voltage limit of you GT inverters (out of spec line voltage or frequency causes GT inverters to shut down for 5 minutes and retry).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,749 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    There is no way they are going to let you do this !  NO WAY short of you paying to upgrade the drop to 400A. They might let you pay for a new transformer also. You should ask your building department as that is the way to do this. Follow their guidance! The Utility is the next step. Make sure you have a permit if have home insurance and want it to be there in a claim. Many of us do not have insurance anymore in this state.

    I think Bill hinted at this also.
     kWh which so far are based on annual but could go to monthly( which is potentially part of the NEM 3.0) ( ie production of kWh beyond what you used over the year) are paid for in wholesale electrical prices which are about 3c/kWh.   IE a negative incentive to produce more than you use. 

    https://nrgcleanpower.com/learning-center/nem-what-changes-are-coming/

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net