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  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #62
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    I have a charge controller which accepts 6AWG wires from the battery.  The cable length to battery will be about 6ft.  I'm changing from the 1000W inverter that looks like a dud to a 1200W.  1200W inverter manual says "maximum current of wire - 100A".  6AWG Ok, but only up to 1 meter from the battery.  I need 6 feet.  I checked the Blue Sea Systems website and under DC circuits/wires, the chart shows 4AWG for 10 ft for 100A.  That's 5 ft from the battery to inverter, plus 5 ft back to the battery (I missed that round trip thing the first time I looked). So the plan is to use 4AWG for that.  Not sure how large a fuse to get for that.  If the inverter lists "peak power" as 2400W, I wonder what the fuse should be? This is assuming I don't want to rely on the internal fuses of the inverter.
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    OK... You are looking for voltage drop... And depending on the chart/website, it may be one way or round trip length. You have to check to see which is which.

    For a 1,200 Watt inverter to draw 100 Amps -- Sounds like a 12 volt battery bank. The actual worst case continuous draw is around:
    • 1,200 Watts * 1/0.85 AC inverter eff * 1/10.5 battery cutoff = 134 Amps continuous
    I suggest a maximum of 0.5 volt wiring drop for 12 volt inverter wiring (11.5 battery under load, 0.5 volt drop at max power, 1.0 drop at max surge power (~2x max continuous power)--Or 11.5 volts - 1.0 volt drop = 10.5 volt inverter cutoff... Using a simple voltage drop calculator for 6 feet (one way run for this calculator), 134 Amps and 0.5 volt drop. Trying several AWG sizes, find that 4 AWG gives:
    https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html?material=copper&wiresize=0.8152&voltage=11.5&phase=dc&noofconductor=1&distance=6&distanceunit=feet&amperes=134&x=62&y=12
    Voltage drop: 0.40
    Voltage drop percentage: 3.47%
    Voltage at the end: 11.1

    Generally, fuses (and circuit breakers) do have a delay (you do not want a "fast acting" fuse in this case--Allow some number of seconds to minutes for surge current to not pop the fuse/breaker)... I like to size the wiring for:
    • 134 Amps max continuous * 1.25 NEC continuous derating = 167.5 Amp rated branch circuit/fuse ~ round up to ~170-180 amps (next standard size fuse)
    Looking at the NEC wiring table (simplified version):

    https://lugsdirect.com/WireCurrentAmpacitiesNEC-Table-301-16.htm

    You could be looking at anywhere from 2 AWG to 2/0 AWG (depending insulation, etc.)... 

    Or, you can look at marine wiring charts and see that 4 AWG is rated for ~160 Amps maximum:

    https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Wire-Size-And-Ampacity

    Exposed wiring dissapates heat much better than wiring packed in conduit (or non-metallic conduit)... Your choice. (2 and 2/0 wiring is heavy, expensive, and difficult to route/terminate).

    As always, starting with the manual's installation instructions is not a bad idea.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #64
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    Thanks for that...another great lesson from Bill.
    I finally found out that the 12V 1200W inverter has 4x30A internal fuses.  An online post says they are easily accessible automotive type fuses (but who knows).  If the point is to protect the internal fuses, maybe I should do a 100A breaker.   
    Fuse placement: The charge controller manual says to place the battery to controller fuse within 6" of the battery.  I wonder if there's any similar consideration for the inverter inline fuse/breaker.

    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    Fuses/breakers that you install, are there to protect the wiring (fuses/breakers are not near fast enough to "save" an AC inverter with a "problem".

    The input fuses that many AC inverters have... I would guess that they are betting that a far number of buyers just connect heavy cable from the battery bank to the inverter (no fuse/breaker).

    When dealing with large power transistors that, if the control electronics fail (which the can), If "both" transistors are on at the same time (H Bridge switching to make the "AC"), it is possible that the inverter would smoke and catch fire (and blow through the case), if there was an internal failure and no external/upstream fuse/breaker.

    "How close to the battery bus" for the breaker/fuse--I have seen 6-18 inches or less... The answer is the distance does not matter--What they are trying to do is make an "inspectable" value that can be used for a Pass/Fail by an inspector. What you want to make sure is that the "Upstream" wiring cannot short circuit as fuse is down stream a foot or so. Just make sure that hardware is tight, nothing can short circuit, if there is wiring going through a hole, that there are not sharp edges/grommet to prevent cuts into the wire insulation. They figure if the wiring is minimal length before the fuse, less chance of shorts.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #66
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    "When dealing with large power transistors that, if the control electronics fail (which the can), If "both" transistors are on at the same time (H Bridge switching to make the "AC"), it is possible that the inverter would smoke and catch fire (and blow through the case), if there was an internal failure and no external/upstream fuse/breaker".
    When you say "external/upstream fuse/breaker" you are referring to the battery-to-inverter wire fuse, yes?

    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    Yes... Something to limit the current (energy) in the circuit. The fuses inside the inverter are (in my humble opinion) a belt and suspender precaution. If the installer did not install a breaker/fuse off the battery bus, the internal fuses will limit the chances of an internal inverter failure of ending up as a puddle of molten metal. If the owner installs a breaker near the battery bus, then the fuses in the inverter are a bit on the redundant side.

    When you deal with UL/NRTL/NEC/etc., the devics (TV, Washer, etc.) all expect to have branch wiring protection (i.e., 15 amp breaker, etc.). The typical house breakers are rated for 10,000 Amp Interrupt--Which is a utility pole transformer's maximum current rating. The breaker will always safely "open" (no arcing/welding/fires) at 10,000 Amp source current.

    Obviously, if you had TV connected to a 10,000 Amp 120/240 VAC transformer--And something went wrong--The TV would be an exploding burning wreck before the pole transformer even got warm.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
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    I laughed when I visualized the exploding TV.
    So here's what I've come up with, with the help of this forum and old fashioned book reading:

    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    The typical installation would also include a 6 AWG wire from the battery negative bus to the ground rod (or at least tied to the wire going up to the AC inverter).

    The output of the AC inverter (PSW assumed) is probably floating (the Neutral could be tied to the AC inverter chassis--You have to check manual or the inverter itself).

    What happens with the 120 VAC inverter output (floating or ground bonded neutral and/or GFI outlet--at least near "water"/outside) for your level of safety.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
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    I hadn't thought that far down the line. There's two plug receptacles on the PSW inverter.   One extension cord to some (outdoor) grow lights and another to a small cabin, with a power strip.  Sounds rinkey-dink.  I wonder how I could improve on that.  One of those plug-in GFI's for the lights? 
        
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    The 2 socket outlet has one GFI circuit... If there is a fault, both outlets are turned off...

    My only suggestion is if you have interior lighting, run that without GFI, or on a second GFI outlet. I suggest that you don't want to be plunged into darkness if the outside (one and only) GFI circuit is tripped, and turning of the lights inside.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset