Damn time to fix the roof!

solar_dave
solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
in Grid Tie and Grid Interactive Systems #1
I knew this would be coming sooner or later.  The 20 year builder concrete tile roof on the house needs new underlayment and flashing.  First sign was the plywood of the overhangs are showing water infiltration issues.  The good news is no signs of interior infiltration at this point.  It also has issues with current code, so an upgrade is now required to match the law.

First quote is in $9600 for just the roof work, I expect the re-racking of the solar will be another 2-4 grand.  The underlayment from the first quote would be double layer of 40lbs granulated fiberglass roll.  I expect at least 2 more quotes this coming week.

Anyone redone one of these concrete roofs?   Comments and suggestions welcomed.  

Hopefully this project will outlast me.
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  • cow_rancher
    cow_rancher Solar Expert Posts: 117 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    If your roofer was like mine 22 years ago... he took a short cut on you.  I specified and got 90# rolled roofing under the tile, and it should last forever without any sun on it, but the drip edge he installed was nailed on top of the rolled roofing, I talked to another roofer and he said that's how they always did it especially on shingle roofs, I said yeah but the water that blows up under the concrete tile runs down the roofing felt, either 40#, or 90#, and under the drip edge, down behind the fascia, and into the soffit area, causing sagging soffits, so check to make sure that isn't happening to you, especially if it's only leaking on the overhangs.

    What is the different with the current code?

    Rancher
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017 #3
    cow_rancher said:

    What is the different with the current code?

    Rancher



    Well now they require step flash for each row of tile at each roof peak and the "bird guards"  which protect the open ends of the tile.  I think they upped the nailing requirements as well from every third row to every second row.  Our new building is done with those features.

    I only have one place that shows signs of the soffit issue and the roofer said it was because the original  roofer shorted one of the valley flashings. 

    Interesting enough I checked out the solar company web site and they have a general contractor license as well, so perhaps one stop shopping.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Up here the only kind of roof that the woodpecker can't put Oak acorns in is a metal roof. Sounds like the building code does actually make sense. Did birds do that to you?

    For a class A fire rating only a fiberglass underpayment can be used up here in wildfire country on any type of roof.
    Good Luck! Time for a ground  mount :)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Dave Angelini said:
    Up here the only kind of roof that the woodpecker can't put Oak acorns in is a metal roof. Sounds like the building code does actually make sense. Did birds do that to you?

    For a class A fire rating only a fiberglass underpayment can be used up here in wildfire country on any type of roof.
    Good Luck! Time for a ground  mount :)
    Sparrows got me Dave.  Guy across the street got drilled into the attic by a woodpecker.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Are the Sparrows a protected species :)  
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • cow_rancher
    cow_rancher Solar Expert Posts: 117 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    solar_dave said:
    cow_rancher said:

    What is the different with the current code?

    Rancher



    Well now they require step flash for each row of tile at each roof peak and the "bird guards"  which protect the open ends of the tile.  I think they upped the nailing requirements as well from every third row to every second row.  Our new building is done with those features.
    I don't know if bird guards were required, I got them, they didn't ask so probably required, and when they did it only the top 2, bottom 2 and side 2 tiles are nailed, the rest float.

    Until you have a micro burst that lifts  a dozen tile up out of the field, then you end up repairing it as it is less than the deductible

    Rancher.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Quotes are coming in it looks like $1.00 per panel to pull the panels and put them back up on the existing mounts and racking, more if the mounting needs work. About $10K to do the roof underlayment the right way.

    I guess the pull and install prices are pretty fair if you have ensure it all works afterward.  Opinions?
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Per panel or per watt?

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2017 #10
    Opps I screwed up $100 per panel sorry but good catch littleharbor2.  
    Of course they did caveat the quote with:

    Exclusions: 
    • Additional racking/attachment hardware 
    • Additional standoffs or flashings if required 
    • Solar water heater 
    • Permits 
    • Drywall repair 
    • Stucco repair 
    • Paint repair. 

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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    That has to be good fun down there on a roof!  We just hit 82F for the first time this year today. You are waiting until fall right?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Dave Angelini said:
    That has to be good fun down there on a roof!  We just hit 82F for the first time this year today. You are waiting until fall right?
    The weather today is predicted to be in the triple digits, They start at the crack of dawn and work till like mid afternoon. Can't wait till fall, need it all fixed before the monsoon shows up mid summer. There is a couple of places that the decking needs work.

    Still trying to get is scheduled so I can plan the hot water panel removal.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,637 admin
    #13
    Check who is responsible for leaks... I.e., if you have a chimney that leaks, who will be responsible? (friend's chimney leaked like a garden hose after a roofing job last winter--Still no resolution on fixing yet)

    Watch flashing installation. Seems like it should be really straight forward--But have seen too many messed up installations where they just dumped sealant or grout in the valleys instead of pulling up and repairing/replacing old flashing to masonry/stucco work.

    Use nails instead of staples for asphalt shingles. Highly recommend against using wood shingles (fire rated or not--Still very flammable as they get old and dried out).

    Asphalt shingles start having problems after 20 years (even 40+ year roofs). I looked at using metal "shingle" roofing--And found a style that did not "scream" metal roofing for my last roof job. It was not that much more expensive than 45 year asphalt roofing (10-20%?). One issue with the roof I used--They put down 1"x batons to nail the roof on (i did have the old roof stripped and plywood put down). The new roof--you have to be somewhat careful and walk on the batons or you can dent the roof.

    Also, if you are in a windy location--Make sure they put down the starter course correctly--One roofing company says that nails must be driven no more than 3" from the edge of the roof. The above roofer nailed 6-8" in, and now don't know if wind warranty will still apply and 6-8 months later. And still no final sign-off on permit.

    If you have a building inspector, do the research on the installation instructions/procedures yourself. And point out to the inspector anything that you think may have concerns about. Use the inspector to ensure roofer does things right.

    Most of the time, whoever delivers the roofing materials will put a mechanic's lean on the property. Some country recording offices will notify you when the lean is applied and when it is released--But they may not be consistent about notifications. Make sure you get a lean release from all parties (suppliers, installer, etc.).

    I even had leans applied to my home for supplies delivered to a home across the street (wrong street address on lean).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    All good advise Bill.  This is a concrete tile roof and the quote includes a double layer of 40# fiberglass underlayment, 3 rib valleys, new drip edge, bird flashing under ends and down ridges.
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  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Really sounds  pretty reasonable for concrete tile roof . 
      We don't really use that type of material here , a standard shingle roof can go over 10,000 in ny .
     Do they reuse the concrete tile? 
     Just lift them off , fix the under layment , re flash and place the tile back on ?
     They only nail the side and bottom. 
      They don't blow off . Really ? 
      I'll have to check that out  sounds cool 
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    wellbuilt said:
    Really sounds  pretty reasonable for concrete tile roof . 
      We don't really use that type of material here , a standard shingle roof can go over 10,000 in ny .
     Do they reuse the concrete tile? 
     Just lift them off , fix the under layment , re flash and place the tile back on ?
     They only nail the side and bottom. 
      They don't blow off . Really ? 
      I'll have to check that out  sounds cool 
    They reuse the tile, it is just the underlayment & flashings on a 2400 sq ft House+ 3 car garage.  I got 3 quotes, they were about a grand above the low bid but have the expertise to pull and place the solar.  None of the other roofers would touch the solar.  I think they are suppose to nail the bottom 3 rows and every third row going up.

    The only caveat is I bet they won't reuse the mounting and will want to replace the mounting hardware.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    So the roof saga continues, The full tear off revealed about a single sheet of plywood and 3 bird stops or end blocking (covered in quote) that needed replacement due to water infiltration over 20 years.  Poor flashing from the builder was the culprit.  Double layer of 40 lbs underlayment installed, much improved flashing used and all the tile was relayed.  Fortunately I had about a half a square of tile left over from the shop building project.  Upon removal 2 panel junction boxes were messed up and one panel had shattered (really looked like hail damage).  Glad I bought 4 panels from NAWS as a second shattered one was also found during the reinstall (I personally should have inspected the stacks of panels, sigh)

    A new layout was done to meet the existing code for 3 ft fire department access to the ridge, the permitting authority said if we did that no permit would be required (considered a repair).  Fully double flashed stanchions were installed and the original racking was used.  Plus the flashing at the underlayment level was reinforced with fiber glass mesh and synthetic mastic. A full metal flashing was the applied under the tile that covers the stanchions. Also all the cables were double clipped to the panels.

    The problem now lies with getting the system fully operational. Seems one string of the 8 has a ground fault. There were four guys chasing that issue much of the afternoon in 108F heat. I am sure it was much hotter on the roof. They finally whittled it down to one string and the problem is in the string and not the run to the combiner.  I expect them to be here bright and early and may required pulling up to 9 panels off the racking to look for why there is a fault.  I am hoping I don't need another panel as the run to Flagstaff is a 2+ hours each way.


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  • Lumisol
    Lumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    #18
    No free delivery?

    My trips to the mountain are 4 1/2 hours each way. I know what you mean. The trips to the beach house are 3 days each way. :(
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Lumisol said:
    No free delivery?

    My trips to the mountain are 4 1/2 hours each way. I know what you mean. The trips to the beach house are 3 days each way. :(
    Yeah love to have a beach house or a mountain get away, certainly not in the budget unless stuff really starts to rock in the market. 

    A bit upset with the solar guys at Harmon Electric. Two days now and no work on the bad string.  I bought 4 replacement panels already and will for sure need to know if more are required. The fourth panel replacement is a bit suspect, starting to wonder if they broke it.  I would take me more than half day of my time to get them from NAWS assuming they still have some.
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  • Lumisol
    Lumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    #20
    I wouldn't be at all surprised if they broke the other removing it and didn't want to admit it to you.
    The mountain get away is an RV parked on my land I finally fenced in a couple years ago, nothing fancy and the beach house is a double wide manufactured home that I had to go through and redo a lot of it to be liveable again...again nothing fancy and nothing to envy. It is fine and serves a purpose but it's a long way to travel and I am thinking about letting it go back on the market.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Well all 8 strings working again. We will let it run over the weekend and then make the final payment for the repair on Monday.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Spoke to soon, washed panels off at dawn, now ground fault! Arrrrgh!

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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2017 #23
    They are coming back on Monday, once it dried out it fired up fine.  Appears that they have a connection someplace that isn't waterproof.

    Very frustrating, still have the final payment hanging over them.
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  • Lumisol
    Lumisol Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    #24
    Haha. They didn't think you'd notice until it rained and they'd already be paid by then.
    Nice catch.
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