Off Grid Battery Alternatives

Mangas
Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
in Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum #1
I re-read NAWS' battery commentary which was very informative. I understand the options and trade offs much better.

In our off grid, we selected the flooded cell L16s' because of the the existing solar mechanical room's limited dimensions, their good reliability record and extended wet cell life.

But from the read, NAWS read seems to like the forklift batteries. Cost irrelevant are these batteries significantly better in terms of lifespan, maintenance and reliability in a large off grid application? From the read, Trojan's only last 4 to 8 years (I planned 9 years)as opposed to 20 years for the forklift and that's disappointing. I am now wondering if I should have somehow accomodated the forklifts or instead?
Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Off Grid Battery Alternatives

    I haven't seen any discussions of whats comming, so here is what I think is comming out in the next year that will be revolutionary for RE.

    http://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=89

    This company, a division of caterpillar , has built the real deal. Its a lead-acid battery but uses carbon graphite foam technology to increase the surface area by 3X and hence the energy density. This isn't some future Lion battery, this is todays lead-acid but with new internals.

    It lighter, uses much less lead, has 2-3X the enenergy and should cost no more to produce than todays pba batteries. It also has MUCH better discharge/recharge abilities and looks like it could be 3X or better in life cycles to boot and allows deep discharger >80% without any ill effects.

    Not sure why the RE world hasn't been talking about this , would seem it will be a huge boom for the RE market and its REAL not some vaporware 5 year out thing ... take some time and read the info at there web-site ... very interesting stuff
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Off Grid Battery Alternatives

    Mangas,

    I’m not aware of any particular advantages to using forklift batteries. Doesn’t mean there aren’t any, just that I’m not aware of any.

    Popular long-life batteries for PV applications include:

    Rolls /Surrette (flooded cell): http://www.rollsbattery.com/
    HuP Solar One (flooded-cell): http://www.hupsolarone.com/
    Exide GNB Absolyte IIP (AGM): www.exide.com or http://www.directpower.com/products/batteries/gnbabsolyteiipbatteries/index.html

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • Roderick
    Roderick Solar Expert Posts: 253 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Off Grid Battery Alternatives
    Solar Guppy wrote: »
    ...
    http://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=89
    ...
    Not sure why the RE world hasn't been talking about this , would seem it will be a huge boom for the RE market and its REAL not some vaporware 5 year out thing ... take some time and read the info at there web-site ... very interesting stuff
    Looks like this is a startup operation, although funded by big corporations such as Caterpillar. I hope they succeed, I really do, but am not getting excited, yet. According to their website, they have not shipped any product, yet, although the claim is that they will in late 2007. And they don't plan to ship to the general public for at least 2 years.

    Their idea is to use a foamed structure for the electrode, to increase its area, and thereby increase performance. The claim is tilted toward a much better battery, for not much more money, as opposed to a fantastic battery, for applications where cost is no object. If this is so, I would ask why they're targeting the U.S. Army as a customer, instead of trying to put these batteries into every forklift in the world - into every car, for that matter. Surely, Caterpillar could use these in their own products?

    One thing that was not made clear on the website was the performance life of the technology. The electrodes seem to draw their advantage from having tremendous surface area, due to tiny nooks and crannies in the sponge electrode. Is it possible that over time, the lead plating on the electrode corrodes and is re-plated, filling in the nooks and crannies?

    I don't want to be too much of a wet blanket. I do hope they succeed, it will be good for all.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Off Grid Battery Alternatives

    If you read the press releases, both Crown and Northstar have been signed up to produce the batterys.

    To be honest, there really isn't a large scale market for better batterys TODAY ... sure we want EV's and better batteries for RE but what is there now they sell plenty of todays batteries.

    The Military is the Key to get it out and proven and they just announce the Group 31 battery to be avalible in 2008, to meet CA idling laws, which is really the same as what we want for RE.

    They have already proven the technology, have battery manufactures lined up to make the batterys ... so based on this is why I think this is much more than a wet blanet deserving vaporware product.

    I'm usally the first one to say something is vaporware, this is the first real product I've seen this decade, all IMHO of course.
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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Off Grid Battery Alternatives

    Thanks Jim. I read through the websites. I probably should have researched power storage more thoroughly.

    I think the increasing cost of existing batteries is based more on higher labor and material costs and not innovation. When I bought mine, price increases were already coming fast.

    The military and NASA will probably continue to lead development partnering with private enterprise to get more efficient and durable power storage products. They control development dollars well beyond the reach of the private sector.

    Structuring it as a private corporation with government contributing the dollars and private enterprise contributing the technology. The subsequent legal entity holding the intellectual property issuing stock in proportion would get us faster power storage and panel products.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: Off Grid Battery Alternatives

    I throughly enjoyed reading the firefly website and it led on to so many further avenues of even viable cost effective battery based storage for grid supply . Even talking about wind farms using these giant sulphur batteries to store energy for peak grid demands making both wind and eventually solar more commercially viable. Wow had to stop, need 2 sleep:roll:
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