IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

Joe Bennett
Joe Bennett Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭✭
in Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum #1
To those who might be interested, you can view online the real time and historical output of the system setup by Local #569 of the IBEW in San Diego California. Lots of sections to look at in real time and it is up 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This is a 74.5 KW AC system that was installed by the members of the local. It is located on top of the Main Union office building there. See attached photos of system too....

Joe

It can be viewed at:

IBEW Local #569 Solar System
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Comments

  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    That's a nice big array, Joe.

    How come they didn't set some southern angle to the array
    rows ? It's kinda hard to tell if there is any or not. Maybe
    a slight bit ?

    boB
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    boB,

    Good question! Here's what PVWatts came up with for a south-facing 74.5 kW array in San Diego:

    Tilt = latitude = ~33 degrees = 111,636 kWh/year
    Tilt = 15 degrees = 108,024 kWh/yr
    Tilt = 5 degrees = 101,985 kWh/yr

    I wonder if they liked the (apparent) lower tilt angle's flatter power production curve?

    Regards,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • Joe Bennett
    Joe Bennett Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    I'll have to chat with the head of the training program at Local #569 and see what the tilt is. I know the building is orientated with its long dimension in the North/South orientation so that might be part of the reason for the array layout being as it is. I will see what I can find out from them in the next few days if possible. Will see if I can take a few photos at the same time too....

    Joe
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  • Joe Bennett
    Joe Bennett Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    Just had a chat with one of the Union officers, and setup an appointment to talk with him on Friday about the TWO separate systems that the Local is now operating. Will get all the details during our talk, and will post them here Friday evening....

    Joe
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  • Joe Bennett
    Joe Bennett Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    If anyone has any questions that they would like to have me include regarding the systems there, just post them here and I will include them when I visit the local....

    Joe
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  • Joe Bennett
    Joe Bennett Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    Also, I would be happy to take photos of anything related to the installations that might help out too. So, just let me know what you want to see....

    Joe
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  • Joe Bennett
    Joe Bennett Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    WOW, the interest here is underwhelming to say the least. Oh well, I guess you can always look at some of the others posts for their amusement value. Have fun all....

    Joe
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    So, what is the approximate dollars/Watt (installed) price of a system like this done by the IBEW ?? I am curious what the difference is between union vs. non union.

    boB
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  • Roderick
    Roderick Solar Expert Posts: 253 ✭✭
    #10
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online
    Joe Bennett wrote: »
    WOW, the interest here is underwhelming to say the least. Oh well, I guess you can always look at some of the others posts for their amusement value. Have fun all....

    Joe
    Hi, Joe.

    Just so you know, I took a look at the page, and liked it. I'm sure the IBEW did especially good work on this one, as it's their own.

    You might also try posting to Usenet, alt.solar.photovoltaic , to attract other viewers.
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  • Joe Bennett
    Joe Bennett Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    Thanks, but I think I really need to cut down on the number of forums I participate in. So will visit here often, but post less. Should make a few here happy anyway. Again Roderick, thanks....

    As for pitting the Union against non-union, I will stay out of that battle. Not really worth the effort to defend either side, and would just cause problems for all involved....
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online
    Joe Bennett wrote: »
    As for pitting the Union against non-union, I will stay out of that battle. Not really worth the effort to defend either side, and would just cause problems for all involved....

    If the installation cost is similar between union and non-union, then it shouldn't matter which one does the install, as long as either one does decent work.

    If we're talking way more than $10.00/Watt or whatever the non-union "going rate" is right now, then that may be too high ? If it is very much beyond this rate, then I can see why you wouldn't want to get into a debate.

    Personally, I don't know what a typical union rate would be. I'm just curious. Yes, I have heard that union was pricier but I don't remember if I heard any example numbers.

    boB
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  • Joe Bennett
    Joe Bennett Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    I really did not want to get into this argument at all. But since you are insisting on it, so be it.

    I have absolutely no idea as to what the cost per KWH might be for Union verses Non-Union installations. I do though have direct knowledge of the quality of work that typically exists between Union trained workers and Non-Union workers. Any company that employs IBEW trained workers will ALWAYS have the better trained crews doing the installation of their equipment. There is no comparision in that regard as each Union worker must meet a minimum standard to be allowed to work as a Journeyman Wireman. On going training is also required by each IBEW Local of each man to remain in good standing in the Union. That is NOT the case at most Non-Union shops that do Solar installations. Often, the typical worker is untrained and unknowledgable in the Solar field, and hired more to fill a space and act as a laborer rather than for his ability to understand the job itself. That is usually left to a foreman who runs that particular crew. Low pay to those hired to fill those spots is the norm, and that is what keeps a Non-Union job at a lower cost. Many times you will find that shoddy workmanship is very evident, as well as after installation service will be lacking too. Oh don't get me wrong now, as you will occasionally find a shop that actually does care about their clients, and the quality of the work being done, but that would be the exception and not the rule. Here in the state of California too, you will find that ALL Union Electricians are now required to train for and obtain the now mandantory State issued electricians license. A Union Electrician cannot even be dispatched out on a job without having a current license in hand. How many Non-Union Solar installers will have that license? So, in the real world you can be penny wise, and pound foolish, and you will get what you pay for in the marketplace....

    Joe
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online
    Joe Bennett wrote: »
    I really did not want to get into this argument at all. But since you are insisting on it, so be it.
    I have absolutely no idea as to what the cost per KWH might be for Union verses Non-Union installations.
    ...
    Joe


    Thanks Joe. A lot of times PV installations will be quantified on a dollar per watt (not Watt-hour) basis. I didn't want you to have to defend the union as I have heard the arguments before, but it doesn't hurt to hear your side of the story. I would rather than not, have the electrician doing the work be licensed. Either way, I'd want to see an example of his/her workmanship first. As far as knowledge about PV and DC installations, it's sort of a different animal than typical AC wiring. A lot of installers that do understand it and do good work (that I have seen) are not union, but I'm not sure why exactly.

    If you do find a dollar/watt number example or two, I'd be interested in hearing it. I thought this might be a good thread to bring it up on.

    Thanks again Joe.

    boB
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  • Joe Bennett
    Joe Bennett Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online

    You are more than welcome. I am glad that you are not closed minded about the Union/Non-Union issue. I actually have one of my son's working in the installation field for a larger installer. He was trained by the union a number of years ago, but choose to leave the union for various reasons. He is one of those foreman now who is VERY frustrated that most of his workers have little if any experience when they start work with him on a new project. Fortunately he does have the knowledge to pass on, and has made a number of these less knowledgeable workers into good installers. The company does many prevailing wage jobs in California, so when he is on one of those, the wages are very nice, and I can understand why he continues working for that company. Anyway boB, I will see if I can find any figures for you about what the arrays cost to install, but I am a bit doubtful that even they may be able to come up with a figure of that type. As the installations were done as part of the hands on training program, costs would be skewed by the labor being mostly provided by the Union training program. Later....

    Joe
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: IBEW Local #569 Solar Array online
    Joe Bennett wrote: »
    You are more than welcome. .....
    As the installations were done as part of the hands on training program, costs would be skewed by the labor being mostly provided by the Union training program. Later....
    Joe

    That'd be great, Joe. It'd be nice to be able to compare. :D

    What all this PV installation stuff boils down to is 1) Price and 2) Workmanship (safety of the install falling under workmanship here)

    PV and its installation costs are too high. The price needs to come down.

    But workmanship needs to be good, whether union or non-union, licensed or non-licensed.

    Thanks,
    boB
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