Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

hidrologo · April 2013

Hi.

This is my first post. I recently replaced my surrette rolls S-530 batts with 200 Ah Deka AGMs (for lower maintenance). I am offgrid and have an Outback GFX 3548 inverter and an Outback MX-60 controller. I have also recently updated my Outback equipment to include a Hub 4 and MATE, which allows me to program charging parameters. I need to change the SR absorption, float, low battery and other parameters to those appropriate for the AGMs. The manual is not very clear. Just wondering if anyone has done this that could help. Also, I am not sure about how the Outback temperature correction is performed, it may not be appropriate for AGMs. There is no Outback support on weekends and I need to make the changes tomorrow morning or ASAP.

Thanks for any help.

gww1 · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

You might try a search on the web site below. I got to go to work so I don't have time to look it up and post the correct subject link.

http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/index.php

Good luck
gww

unicornio · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

hidrologo wrote: »

Hi.

This is my first post. I recently replaced my surrette rolls S-530 batts with 200 Ah Deka AGMs (for lower maintenance). I am offgrid and have an Outback GFX 3548 inverter and an Outback MX-60 controller. I have also recently updated my Outback equipment to include a Hub 4 and MATE, which allows me to program charging parameters. I need to change the SR absorption, float, low battery and other parameters to those appropriate for the AGMs. The manual is not very clear. Just wondering if anyone has done this that could help. Also, I am not sure about how the Outback temperature correction is performed, it may not be appropriate for AGMs. There is no Outback support on weekends and I need to make the changes tomorrow morning or ASAP.

Thanks for any help.

hi, hidrologo, and welcome to the forum!...here you are in the right site!...;-)
meanwhile, you can are welcome in the outback users forum, as gww1 said...

i have a mate3, and can not remember what are the menu tree in the mate, but you can read the users manual of mate and see how to change anything...is very user friendly and intuitive to run the menus of the mate...

have you connected the outback RTS sensor to the GFX?...this is not an option, you need to connect the RTS to the inverter, (and inverter port of the hub4 is the port1, and you can connect the MX60 in the port2), now that you have your equipment well connected with the hub and mate and both chargers will work in sync with your battery... ...and the rts info will be used too for the MX60 and inverter's chargers...tempertaure compensation is necessary in any battery, but if we speak about AGM batteries, RTS is a must!...

hope this help!...;-)

edit: if you have the old MX60 (he remains the authentic reference MPPT controller, robust and reliable as a stone, made to work hard, but gently and with extreme care of your batteries! ...) may be better to program the mx60 by the display and menus of the MX60, because of the lack of plenty of comunications with the old mx60, that is born with his own display and configuration menu philosophy...

communications and remote control is the only great advantage of the news FM's...but the last update of the firmware of the MX60 make it remains full managed and working in sync with all outback stuff...

niel · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

the data you need to input you will find from the manufacturer so a lookup on their website for your particular batteries is warranted. i wish i could help with the programing aspect, but i never did that for outback stuff. be aware that you may see voltage readings higher or lower than what you program for your different charge stages as that would be the battery temp compensation influencing it.

mtdoc · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

hidrologo wrote: »

Hi.

This is my first post. I recently replaced my surrette rolls S-530 batts with 200 Ah Deka AGMs (for lower maintenance). I am offgrid and have an Outback GFX 3548 inverter and an Outback MX-60 controller. I have also recently updated my Outback equipment to include a Hub 4 and MATE, which allows me to program charging parameters. I need to change the SR absorption, float, low battery and other parameters to those appropriate for the AGMs. The manual is not very clear. Just wondering if anyone has done this that could help. Also, I am not sure about how the Outback temperature correction is performed, it may not be appropriate for AGMs. There is no Outback support on weekends and I need to make the changes tomorrow morning or ASAP.

Thanks for any help.

Outback has several youtube videos which you may find helpful. A quick search found THIS ONE which may be helpful. There are many others.

And - yes temperature compensation IS defintely important for AGMS! Otherwise you risk charging at too high a voltage in warm weather and popping vents! - or too low a voltage in low temps and under charging. Either way leads to ruined batteries. You also need the correct voltages from the battery manufacturer as Neil points out.

For AGMS in particular a good shunt based battery monitor is important since you can't measure SGs. For your system the Outback Flexnet DC will work well and allow you to end aborb based on end amps. If you get a FNDC it MUST be set up correctly. Outback has a tecnichal note on their website that explains how to do this (don't worry, it's easy).

hidrologo · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

tried to sign up on their forum, but apparently a person has to accept you as a member and the forum is apparently unmanned weekends.

hidrologo · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

My problem may be the old MX 60. I don't know if there is a special Mate command to make the MX-60 obey, but it is very frustrating that it doesn't.
I thought that I had the problem solved when I found a forum entry where the commands
MAIN/ADV/any button/password (141) enter/FX/CHGR/Down (make changes to consecutive parameters) was pointed out.
I used that to set the absorption and float voltage and charge times appropriate for AGM.
I also calibrated the battery voltage with a meter.

Thought I was done. The afternoon I went out to check things and in the absorption stage the batteries were reading 58.2 volts, they later came down to 50 V.
This is significantly higher than the 56.2 V that I set the absorption stage at. Fortunately for the temp they are at the batts are ok up to 58.4 V, but it makes me mad that I have set the voltages with the mate and the MX60 appears to ignore them. Perhaps there is a max voltage parameter for the bulk that needs to be set.

In reality the Mate manual sucks, lots of info for the person who already understands the mate, but not much help for a first timer.

Also, the recommended U tube site seems to lead only to advertising. I was unable to watch the video.

Would appreciate any help. thanks

hidrologo · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

My mate tells me the temperature is 255, which is apparently a code. What does it mean and why not give the temp in F or C or both?
My sensor is connected to the inverter as it was pre-mate. Can anyone tell me if this needs to be changed?
How can I check if the sensor is working. Since 255 is what the manual states in its info I am guessing that it is not a real number and the mate has no knowledge of the temp.

gww1 · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

tried to sign up on their forum, but apparently a person has to accept you as a member and the forum is apparently unmanned weekends.

If you are talking about the outback site, they were slow in getting the email to me saying I was ok. I did however surf it for a year or two before I tried to join. I believe if you search agm's your answer may already be there. I know crewzer had a long post on getting new batteries that had a lot of discussion on agms and I know handleing them and settings required has been discussed many time. I do always have trouble getting the proper info using search however, batteries have not changed in years so even old post may be relitive.
gww

hidrologo · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

I have the specs under control, although the manufacturer doesn't give any information on the length of time for absorption or float. So far those parameters Iv'e gotten from posts. Another shortcoming as far as i'm concerned. This info should be out there on the battery manufacturer's site or on the inverter/controller company site. nada....

gww1 · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

search the outback site for code 255. The temp sense should be in the inverter if you have a hub. The inverter should be plugged into the first port of hub and the mx should be in the second port. I found the teck vidios to be informative. No selling at all. Are you watching the ones that outback put out? I also think that you have to reconize in the mate what you are trying to set. this is from memory from the last time I watched the vidio.
Good luck
gww

vtmaps · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

hidrologo wrote: »

The afternoon I went out to check things and in the absorption stage the batteries were reading 58.2 volts,

This is significantly higher than the 56.2 V that I set the absorption stage at. Fortunately for the temp they are at the batts are ok up to 58.4 V, but it makes me mad that I have set the voltages with the mate and the MX60 appears to ignore them.

I think (but not certain) the MX shows you the voltage before temp comp. The actual voltage will be higher if the batteries are cold.

hidrologo wrote:

My mate tells me the temperature is 255, which is apparently a code. What does it mean

yes, its a code. Here's the secret decoder document:
Attachment not found.

As you can see, your sensor is disconnected or defective

--vtMaps

niel · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

vtmaps wrote: »

I think (but not certain) the MX shows you the voltage before temp comp. The actual voltage will be higher if the batteries are cold.

yes, its a code. Here's the secret decoder document:
Attachment not found.

As you can see, your sensor is disconnected or defective
--vtMaps

vtmaps,
yes, he needs to also input the correct temp compensation (that if i'm remembering rightly that can be programmed into it) with a working bts connected. the battery manufacturer needs to provide that information as well as the voltage set points for charging.

now with that error code present i am wondering why the voltage popped upward past his settings. something is amiss here.

Vic · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

Am a bit late to this conversation ...

The main status screen of the MX-60 shows the actual Battery Voltage (after it has been compensated).

Believe that there is NO Temperature Comp value that can be set, it is nominally 120 mv/degree on a 48 V system.

I know nothing of Mates, Hubs, or Ports on the OB equipment, as the venerable MX-60 is the only OB equipment here.

The time for Float is indefinite. It is not a charge stage, it is there to try to maintain full charge as long as there is enough power input to maintain that Float voltage.

It has been reported that with AGM batteries, that the FM CC can overshoot the target voltage settings, particularly when the batts are near fully charged. Some of this is just the nature of AGMs, and some MAY be due to the FM CC responding a bit slowly when trying to regulate voltage.

Good Luck with the new battery bank. Vic

niel · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

sorry vic as it states for the mx60 in its specs, "Programmable slope -2.0mV/oC/Cell to -5.0mV/oC/Cell".
http://www.solcosolarproducts.com.au/pdf/regulators/mx60_spec.pdf

it is also not because of agm type batteries that the voltage has overshot. agm batteries do not cause voltage overshoot, but they are detrimentally sensitive to overshoot. that would be a flaw in the design of the cc as it is slow to respond just as i've seen on a c40 pwm cc. i would never recommend a cc that is slow in its response to be used with agm batteries.

Vic · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

OK niel, thanks, have set and forgotten these MXes eight years ago, so just forgot ... the manual is somewhere around here.

Regarding the traffic on the OB Forum regarding FM CCs charging AGM batts, it IS noted that when, at least some AGM batts are fairly high impeadance but still under charge (ie later in Absorb and probably in Float), that their terminal voltage can take upward excursions with little change in current. It was also conjectured that these excursions were not harmful (or very harmful) to these AGM batteries.

Have run sealed batteries in the past, and DO know that SLAs are very sensitive to exceeding the speced nominal and Max charging (temp comped) voltages. No disagreement there. FWIW, Vic

Vic · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

niel, Have been too busy with Spring projects to look, but there is this Thread on the OB Forum regarding FM CCs connected to AGMs (primarily) and some thoughts on that combo ... you may have seen it, but may help hidrologo or others:

http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3211

FWIW, Vic

hidrologo · April 2013

Re: Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

vtmaps wrote: »

I think (but not certain) the MX shows you the voltage before temp comp. The actual voltage will be higher if the batteries are cold.

yes, its a code. Here's the secret decoder document:
Attachment not found.

As you can see, your sensor is disconnected or defective
--vtMaps

Thank you for this information. It appears that my inverter has not been getting temperature information for a very long time. It may be that the sensor was not installed correctly.
Since I have the inverter off the wall I will check that tomorrow.

Unfortunately, I am leaving for Europe on Saturday and if the sensor is defective I will need to at least try to input values that won't destroy AGMs before my return. Unfortunately, from what is written here, not being a professional, I am having a hard time trying to figure out what to do. I can call a guy out that charges $90 an hour, but i am quite sure that the guy that originally set up my system didn't know very much (likely the sensor has never worked, shortening the life time of my S530s), so I am somewhat reluctant to pay someone a lot of money to set up my system, and being a newbie, I worry that I may be taken advantage of. I am going to try to set the parameters so that when I return in Aug-Sept, I can install a new sensor and be sure that it is working, and then set the parameters correctly and fix the sensor, and hopefully figure out why the mate doesn't respond.

What I did previously was to measure the battery voltage with my multimeter and I then adjusted the MX-60 voltage to be the same. I can take a thermometer and measure the temperature in the battery room. So is there something simple I can do given the problems I am having. Looking in the MX60 manual. it would appear that if the highest temperature is about 95 degrees, then I should subtract 1.2 V from my set points. This is the highest temperature that I would expect in my battery room. It seems to me that if I subtract 1.2 or 1.3 to be safe from the upper bounds for the AGM set points, I should be OK. Another question - the reading on my MX 60 is the TEMPERATURE COMPENSATED value according to my MX60 (going from memory since system is down right now). If the temp sensor isn't working, then it should agree with my multimeter, correct?

thanks for the help on this. Hidrologo

Vic · February 2016

vtmaps,

I have been trying to find the Secret Decoder Ring for OB CCs -- MX-60 & the FMs.
Looking for the RTS table of counts verses temperature for the above CCs.

In this Thread, you had provided a link to that data, but, now, with Vanilla, "the Attachment (was) not found".

Have searched this Forum, and the OB Forum, as well as asking in an old OB Forum Thread which referenced that table, but that Link is also not working, and no reply to that Post. Also started a new Thread on the OB Forum, asking for this data, but, as yet no reply ... not even from OB Tech.

Do you have this data? Could you possibly post it, or PM it to me?

Thanks! Vic

vtmaps · February 2016

Hi Vic,
I can't seem to attach it... tried two different browsers... a problem with Vanilla, I think.
I will see if I can send it by PM.

--vtMaps

Vic · February 2016

OK, vt, thanks for trying, and will look for a PM.

Thanks again, Vic

vtmaps · February 2016

The PM has been sent. Why don't you try attaching it (if you can) to this thread for others to see.

--vtMaps

vtmaps · February 2016

I got it figured out... When I try to attach it it gives me a message that the file is already attached to this thread.

I just looked back at my post (in this thread) from April 13, 2013 at 6:24 PM and the attachment is at the bottom of that post. The Vanilla software will not allow it to be uploaded twice to the same thread. What's weird is that it lost the attachment in the 2013 post, but realizes that the attachment is already in the thread only after I try to reattach it 3 years later.

--vtMaps

Vic · February 2016

Hi vtmaps,

Got the PM, and the Table. Was able to save it as a Text file.

This is very helpful. Thank you very much!

I will never understand why Vanilla is so very special, and different from ALL other Forum software ... but glad that I do not need to know why.

Thanks again! Vic

zoneblue · February 2016

Well if you want to post it, try renaming it, or changing the modified date, or worst case, change the file or zip it up?

vtmaps · February 2016

zoneblue said:

Well if you want to post it, try renaming it, or changing the modified date, or worst case, change the file or zip it up?

I.m sure that will work, but there's no need... the file is now re-attached to this thread. It is attached to my post from April 13, 2013 at 6:24 PM. That is where it was originally three years ago when I posted it.

In the upgrade to Vanilla it was lost, but when I tried to attach it to my more recent post, Vanilla attached it to where it had been originally.

--vtMaps

Vic · February 2016

vtmaps said:

zoneblue said:

Well if you want to post it, try renaming it, or changing the modified date, or worst case, change the file or zip it up?

I.m sure that will work, but there's no need... the file is now re-attached to this thread. It is attached to my post from April 13, 2013 at 6:24 PM. That is where it was originally three years ago when I posted it.

In the upgrade to Vanilla it was lost, but when I tried to attach it to my more recent post, Vanilla attached it to where it had been originally.

--vtMaps

OK, Great, vtmaps ....

I had planned to attach the file that you so kindly sent, but wanted to first determine if applied to the OB CCs. That requires the disassembly if the Styrofoam heat shield on the pack of six RTS/BTSes on the battery bank, which requires some time for R & Ring all of that ... need to extract the MX-60 RTS, so that I can manipulate its temperature and compare the count data to that from the Table vt sent/posted.

Thanks again, Vic

Help with changing parameters with Outback mate

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