6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

Options
2»

Comments

  • cupcake
    cupcake Solar Expert Posts: 254 ✭✭✭
    #32
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO
    stmar wrote: »
    Have you noticed that the consensus here is to try to "be debt free"? I think that falls into line with the alternative energy mentality of self reliance. It is amazing to me the people that do not get this, to them monthly payments (interest $$) are the norm. They do not realize how much they spend in interest, I realize how much I have saved for sure over the years. Being debt free helps when inflation raises it's ugly head, at least you can maneuver enough to minimize the pain by getting higher interest rates for your cash or your investments increase. When you are at the mercy of interest $$, inflation dictates. I learned a cheap lesson 45 years ago; bought a set of new tires from Sears and got my first credit card and ended up paying over double what the original cost was because I thought you just paid the minimum payment. Cost me a few hundred dollars which was a lot for a kid but it was well worth it.


    Great post.... Debt-slavery is the way of modern society... most will realize this too late when life has already passed them by...

    As an actedote, my parents were Lawyers back in the day, and that's when I realized a simple rule: It's not what you make, ITS WHAT YOU KEEP!

    My parents made 6 figure incomes and had 6 figure DEBTS... the end result was literally "Mcdonalds" when they finally got thier hands on the leftovers...

    The neighbor across the street was a Physcian.. he was in the same boat... you could see the stress in his face on a daily basis...

    Then there was the neighborhood handyman "Chappy" was his name... and I always remember his smile... his cheer... his happy wife... his energetic joyful children..
    ..and I wondered, if Chappy is 'just' a handyman, why does he seem to be happier than the lawyers and doctors in the neighborhood...?? He's just some 'lowly labourer' right?

    Thats when daddy sat me down and gave me a reality-check. He explained that Chappy's labour rate is $50 an hour, and he actually KEEPS $50 per hour. Daddy explained that as a layer he makes $300 a hour and actually KEEPS about $5 an hour -- the other $295 goes to the federal/private loan company that lent him his debt...

    Its a stage-trick... an illusion... a magic trick... what you 'earn' is meaningless... what you KEEP is what matters... Its kinda like having 6000 watts of panels on your roof, and a DOUBLE-A battery in your battery bank... you make a lot of energy, and keep next to none...

    Later on my dad passivley would tell me and my brother, not to be Lawyers...not to go to lawschool... then this turned into dont go to college.... again passivley...

    I didnt understand -- my daddy is a 'big shot lawyer' and telling me to be a plumber or an electrician... I didnt understand as a kid...

    Of course today I understand what he was getting at... the Dr's and Lawyers are stressed..in debt..little if any family (kids)... while joe the pluber or electrcian has HAPPINESS.. no debt.. normal sized house that's paid for...kids..wife.. the things that truly matter in life....

    MYTHOLOGY and REALITY are two different things... lawyer, doctor, go to college, get in debt for a 20,000sqf mcmansion, use grid-power, 'build you equity' (debt)...

    its all slavery..

    MYTHOLOGY: ITS NOT JUST FOR THE GREEKS
    ~1.5Kw PV in parallel
    Morningstar MPPT-60 controllers (2) in parallel
    3 Trojan tr-1275's in parallel 450ah total
    Samlex 2,000 watt 12-volt inverter hardwired


    · Share on Twitter
  • Texas Wellman
    Texas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    #33
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    Doesn't matter how much money you make or what your profession is. There are plenty of broke handymen that are also in the debt cycle living paycheck to paycheck. I have known lawyers and doctors whose house looked like it was falling down and wouldn't spend a dime on anything but they were extremely wealthy.

    It's all about choices.
    · Share on Twitter
  • cupcake
    cupcake Solar Expert Posts: 254 ✭✭✭
    #34
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO
    Texas Wellman wrote: »
    Doesn't matter how much money you make or what your profession is. There are plenty of broke handymen that are also in the debt cycle living paycheck to paycheck. I have known lawyers and doctors whose house looked like it was falling down and wouldn't spend a dime on anything but they were extremely wealthy.

    It's all about choices.


    Ya - I grew up in a household with 'extremely wealthy' lawyers with a house that looked like it was falling down -- the 'extreme wealth' materialized briefly on payday, hit my parent's bank account and then immediately went to the banker/creditor a few microseconds later...

    funny thing is everyone thought we were 'extremely wealthy'...

    extremely indebted... and that's why they 'wouldn't spend a dime on anything' also...

    And my neighborhood handyman as a kid was 'broke' but somehow couldn't stop smiling...or his wife.. or his kids...

    makes you re-think who was really 'broke' or 'extremely wealthy'...


    Most people think 'wow doctor..lawyer..so wealthy and nice'... having grown up around this 'American dream' as a kid I saw the truth... and I'll never forget it....
    ~1.5Kw PV in parallel
    Morningstar MPPT-60 controllers (2) in parallel
    3 Trojan tr-1275's in parallel 450ah total
    Samlex 2,000 watt 12-volt inverter hardwired


    · Share on Twitter
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    #35
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    Part of it is also IF at todays interest rates you can short term some debt to actually pay for something that will increase in value with inflation. Basically that's what I did when I installed my system. I "borrowed" the money from my retirement IRA which is currently paying less than 1%, took the 30% tax credit which basically allowed me to withdraw it without taxes. As of now the ROI on my system is 7% so I feel good about the investment and as each rate increase from the power company comes I feel that much better.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #36
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    A major reason I started this discussion was to debunk comments by some interests that solar does not pay and is not a good investment. One intent was to draw into solar those who would do it for investment reasons alone. People who put in solar do it for a variety of reasons. My primary motivation was to "do the right thing" and reduce fossil fuel usage and the adverse impacts which come from use of fossil fuels. I think many others have done it for the same reason. But since the net result of solar is less fossil fuel energy, whether that result is achieved to "do the right thing" or to save money or for financial gain, the outcome is less fossil fuel energy is the same. Kudos to all who reduce their usage of fossil fuels.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #37
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    I modified my projections based on new PVWatts data. June came in a hair above the average prediction. ROI now is 2.8%, aiming for 5% by the end of the first year.
    Attachment not found.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #38
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    System performance remains very close to the predicted Average, even though July fell a little short. I'm surprised how well July did because my perception of July was lots of variable clouds, no sunny day dawn to dusk, and lots of haze.

    Attachment not found.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #39
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    Passed the 7MWh point on Aug 12, 2-1/2 months to go to achieve the PVWatts estimated yearly production of 9.2MWh. August in the first 15 days was 534 kwh.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #40
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    August is over, with the first 15 days at 535 kwh and the last 16 days at 291 kwh, total 826 kwh for the month.

    Attachment not found.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #41
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    September finished very well. This chart uses new PVWatts data. As can be seen, Nov, Dec and Jan were the big deficit months, with the following months almost right on the averages.

    Attachment not found.
    · Share on Twitter
  • fun2drive
    fun2drive Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭
    #42
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    I'm glad to see your production doing so well in MN.
    I am planning a 10KW system when I start construction in December.
    Cost per watt is coming down a good deal and I am actually thinking if my system in Florida works well I might install a system on the south facing roof of my Ohio home and offset running a 1 hp pool pump all summer long.

    Reasons for my interest in doing solar PV are mainly because now as PV approaches 1-1.25 bucks per watt it is a good investment compared to the endless electric bill.

    I do expect return on investment around 7 years which is only reasonable given the state of the technology today.

    Thanks for the updates again...
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #43
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    A friend of mine just installed an 18 kwh ground mount system after seeing my system and its performance. PV is a good financial investment, it helps insulate from future utility rate increases, and importantly it is freely available every hour the sun shines without adding CO2 to our atmosphere. I will look forward to reading your posts as you install your system. Keep in mind I'm at 47N latitude, much further north than Ohio, and unless your local conditions are less sunny than mine, Ohio should be a very good location for PV.
    · Share on Twitter
  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #44
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    jebatty

    It may not insolate you from rate hikes as electric companies add more upfront cost rather then usage cost. Don't get me wrong, I believe in working with in the rules that are current and adjusting when they change.
    gww
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #45
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    I'm well aware of the utility strategy of raising the base access charge to compensate for reduced profits resulting from reduced usage through customer conservation and use of PV and wind. My co-op utility recently raised the base charge to $14/mo from $12/mo, a 16% increase. That $2 = 17 kwh equivalent of purchased power. I know other utilities charge much more. Minnesota is quite proactive in promoting solar, from residential to community to large commercial grid systems. The Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport just approved a 3 MW solar parking ramp project, which will include plug-in for EV, a near perfect marriage of solar production with demand. The MN PUC recently ordered a major utility to add 600 MW of solar, which outbid fossil fuel generation bidders. Like you, I will work within the rules and adapt as they change, and I can see a big adaptation as battery storage technology, from home scale to utility scale, greatly improves, both in capacity and in reduced cost.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Uncle Dave
    Uncle Dave Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭
    #46
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO
    fun2drive wrote: »
    I'm glad to see your production doing so well in MN.
    I am planning a 10KW system when I start construction in December.
    Cost per watt is coming down a good deal and I am actually thinking if my system in Florida works well I might install a system on the south facing roof of my Ohio home and offset running a 1 hp pool pump all summer long.

    Reasons for my interest in doing solar PV are mainly because now as PV approaches 1-1.25 bucks per watt it is a good investment compared to the endless electric bill.

    I do expect return on investment around 7 years which is only reasonable given the state of the technology today.

    Thanks for the updates again...

    Not sure if you are running solar heating and need that much power for your whole run but I found a variable RPM pump to pay back quite quickly.
    After I optimized the plumbing I can quite well with 190 watts of power.
    A few 250's and a conservative but effective pump schedule and you could be net neutral on your pool pumping.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #47
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    PV provides so many options and opportunities. It's easy to overlook the fact that our whole lives, except for the car/pickup, run almost only on electricity, and soon that car/truck might also. At the same time, conservation opportunities also have advanced, like the variable speed pump. I don't run solar heating, although I planned on building a solar hot air supplement to our space heating (which I have delayed building). I heat with wood, have plenty available on our property, and wood too is stored solar energy which is sustainable and net zero, contrary to fossil fuels. And for a pool we have a lake not far from our front door which also is solar heated.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #48
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    Received the electric utility bill for the period ending October 8: -$67.00 for the current period and $728.00 total credits accumulated. October so far is producing just about dead-on for the estimate of 757 kwh for the month, being at 455 kwh through October 19. At the end of October the system will have been in place for one full year.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #49
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    Today, Oct 28, is the one year anniversary of my system. The 26 micro-inverters report total output of 8965 kwh. The production meter at the house reports total 8880 kwh. I'm assuming that the 0.9% difference is caused by line loss over the 280 feet of underground cable between the panels and the house. Following the end of October I will have a more complete report and analysis of the first year of operation.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #50
    Options
    Re: 6.5k System: A Wise (Investment) Decision IMO

    Here are the results from the 1st year of PV:
    Attachment not found.
    Note that most of the failure to meet average production occurred in Nov, Dec and Jan, with production falling short by 991 kwh, and the balance of the year failing to meet average by 182 kwh. Averages are just that, so the future will tell the rest of the story.

    Other data which is informative: 1) used 7120 kwh for utility interruptible service at a reduced rate (electric heat and domestic hot water, about 100 kwh/mo for dhw and average 500 kwh/mo for heat); 2) used 3522 kwh of utility general service (about 300 kwh/mo), for a total of 10,642 kwh of utility grid usage; 3) the utility also bought from me 6852 kwh, and I directly used 2070 kwh of PV production; 4) total electric usage was 12,712 kwh (1060 kwh/mo), which I believe to be above average because of above normal usage of electric heat due to the very cold winter last year.

    During this first PV year we also converted nearly all of our lighting to LED. We also are very good at turning off lights when not needed and we have most electronics on power strips which we turn off when not being used. Except for the wood stove which meets most of our heating needs, our house is all electric, and substantial usage would relate to the electric clothes dryer, stove top, and oven. Any additional electric energy conservation at this time would be very difficult.

    The final observation is -- very satisfied with the PV and look forward to future dividends for self and community.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #51
    Options
    1 MW in 30 days! The Feb 14 - Mar 15, 2015, period showed 1,013 kwh of production! Makes the mind twist a bit to realize how cold weather and clear skies, sun still low, can outproduce almost every other month of the year. Since installed at the end of October 2013, the system crossed the 11MW mark on March 8, 2015
    · Share on Twitter
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭
    #52
    Options
    An update - the 6.5kw system became a 12.3kw system as of April 9, 2015. By coincidence, April 22, 2014, was the single day maximum energy production of the 6.5kw system - 48kwh; and April 22, 2015, has been the single day maximum energy production of the 12.3kw system - 89kwh. July 2014 was the maximum single month production of the 6.5kw system - 1.08kwh; and July 2015 so far has been the maximum single month production of the 12.3kw system - 1.77Mwh. The second week of July 2015 was exceptionally cloudy and July in general had hazy skies due to western US and Canada forest fires, so I suspect that on average July production could be higher, probably very close to 2Mwh. Lifetime (22 months) energy production is 18.7Mwh.

    The system has been maintenance free except for two items: 1) I had to add a little heat in winter to the outdoor electrical box that holds the data loggers because as outdoor temperatures fell somewhat below about -15F they would shut down. The fix was easy - I added a snap disc thermostat to light a 3w LED bulb in the box to provide the extra heat. The thermostat is "on" at 0F and "off" at +5F. 2) The backup battery in a data logger developed a bad contact and shut down. Finding this problem was not easy, but fixing it was. I cleaned the contacts.

    My PV system now is maxed out based on the amount of amps that can be back-fed into my main panel. Energy arriving at the panel, about 220 feet from the ground mount array, remains at 99.1% of the energy produced at the panels as reported by the microinverters. Our household energy use now is 100% fossil carbon free, except for the car and small engine equipment. After 22 months I am 100% satisfied with the PV system.

    Attachment not found.
    · Share on Twitter
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #53
    Options
    That sounds about right for Minnesota, we have a 12.5 Kw system here in AZ and cover almost all out electric usage which include two 3 ton Heat Pump Trane units, a mini split with 3 room wall mount units, a swimming pool and 2 electric cars. It is pretty much borderline net zero. I could use another 3Kw in panels but can't really justify the added cost now, perhaps at the next pool pump refresh we will go DC and solar.
    · Share on Twitter
  • morpho
    morpho Solar Expert Posts: 176 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2015 #54
    Options
    I "luckily" fall into that debt free category as well. I was sat down at the kitchen table as a kid and the concept of borrowing and debt was explained to me. The concept of living within my means was also laid out in front of me. Fast forward to my early 40's...(how did that happen so fast?) and It has proven to be the soundest advice I have ever received. This all has to be balanced off with living for now and not some imaginary retirement where I am skipping hand in hand with my wife down a sandy beach while wearing linen beach pants and our grey hair glinting in the sun. Ya, I can tell you it is more important to make it all work for you while you can actually enjoy the sand and sun. I don't know a single older retired person who got to enjoy the retirement they spent 40+ years slaving away for. The vast majority retired at 65-ish fussed about their joints being shot, another 5-10 years slip past and they didn't once find themselves limping down the beach, instead they found themselves in adult diapers and in an old folks home soon after. Live now is the point. Getting old sucks regardless of how fat your bank account is.

    I spent 20 years surfing everyday in tropical paradises, seeing amazing things, meeting amazing people. I worked hard, saved REALY HARD, did without a lot of things people would consider just normal life. I find myself middle aged, and can honestly say instead of hoping to live the freedom 55 dream. I lived the freedom 20's and 30's dream...when I could actually enjoy it! 

    All because of that day at the kitchen table. No debt equals freedom. Thanks MOM!
    11.5 kw array  -  3 - midnite solar classic 200's   -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) - Yamaha ef3000ise - 1 confused look on face
    · Share on Twitter

Categories