Midnite Solar Classic 200 set up help..

bryhan67bryhan67 Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
Hello all.. Trying to set up my classic 200. Little confused on battery amp hours. I have 10 T-105's what hour rate should I use? 20 hour is 225ah's I am running 12v system. 10 x 225 is 2,250ah @ 6volt. So would I use 1125 for my ah's? The manual was not clear on different voltage. 

Comments

  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    bryhan67 said:
    Hello all.. Trying to set up my classic 200. Little confused on battery amp hours. I have 10 T-105's what hour rate should I use? 20 hour is 225ah's I am running 12v system. 10 x 225 is 2,250ah @ 6volt. So would I use 1125 for my ah's? The manual was not clear on different voltage. 
    Welcome to the forum,

    Your batteries are configured as two in series (a 12 volt string), and you have 5 strings in parallel.

    Each string is 225 ah at 12 volts.  The 5 strings in parallel have a 1125 ah capacity.

    Your system (what little I know about it) raises a couple of red flags:

    First: 5 strings of batteries is very poor design for a system that is going to be cycled frequently.  When charging them, the current will not divide equally among the batteries.  As the system becomes unbalanced, you will ultimately reach the point where some batteries are actually discharging into other batteries.  You will need to use bus bars in a battery combiner box to wire the batteries.  Also, for safety reasons, each string needs a fuse.  The fuses will add complexity, resistance, and more potential points of failure to the system.

    Second: You have a Classic 200 with a 12 volt system.  This raises some concern about running the classic cool and efficiently.  When the input voltage to the Classic is much higher than the battery voltage, the Classic is less efficient and has lower rated capacity. 

    Since you have a Classic 200 (rather than a Classic 150), I presume it is because you are running a high PV string voltage to the Classic.   Stepping that high voltage down to 12 volts is very inefficient.  The Classic 200 should usually be used with 48 volt systems (or even 72 volt systems).  

    The lower rated capacity of the Classic (at higher input voltage) is to protect it from overheating.  How many watts of PV panels do you have, and what is the Vmp of the combined PV output?  Hopefully you are nowhere near the Classic's capacity limit because it is not a good idea to run them for hours on end when they are on the verge of melting.

    --vtMaps

    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • bryhan67bryhan67 Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Thanks for the reply. My system is not exactly the way I want it. Its a beach house we only go every other weekend so I don't cycle often. Once I get a 48 inverter I will switch over. Yes I have the 200 to run 3 panels in a string. After I get the 48v inverter will have 4 panels in 3 strings. I understand everything you said except about my battery bank. I never recall seeing a battery bank with that needed a buss bar with 5 breakers.   Can you elaborate more about the batteries. 


  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    bryhan67 said:
     I understand everything you said except about my battery bank. I never recall seeing a battery bank with that needed a buss bar with 5 breakers.   Can you elaborate more about the batteries.
    try reading this short thread:
    http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/13179/series-rule-of-thumb

    and this site:
    http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • bryhan67bryhan67 Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    I have 10 T-105's wired similar to the picture. Except I have neg and pos off opposite ends.  Is this a bad set up? They are old batteries and we only use 5 or 6 days a month. Most of the time they are full charged.  Do you have a diagram how you recomend to set them up for 12v? 
    now.JPG 23.9K
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    bryhan67 said:
    Do you have a diagram how you recomend to set them up for 12v?
    Use method 3 on this smartgauge page.  It will require the use of bus bars.  The smartgauge site does not show the fuses that are required for safety.  When charging the battery bank you hope that the current will divide equally among the 5 batteries.  At some point you may have a situation where all the current is going to just 1 or 2 batteries.  That can lead to danger... thermal runaway.  That is why you should have a fuse for each battery.

    It would also be a good idea to invest in a DC clamp amp meter to monitor the discrepancy among the batteries.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • bryhan67bryhan67 Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    I have 6v batteries wiring 12v do you have a diagram for that? Thanks
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    bryhan67 said:
    I have 6v batteries wiring 12v do you have a diagram for that? Thanks

    Here is a diagram with 4 strings of batteries connected in parallel with bus bars.  Each of the 4 strings is two 6 volt batteries in series. 

    This diagram does not show the fuses, but each string should have a fuse.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • zonebluezoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭✭
    Just because you dont see it done right much, only shows you that everyone follows everyone else who was following everyone else, who was following some nitwit on youtube that had fun making a video, but didnt understand engineering. What vt is telling you is correct.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • zonebluezoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭✭
    Btw the reason for the fusing is: if you get a chunk of plate fall off a cell, shorting the cell or battery out, if you have parallel strings the shorted string will dump the contents of the good strings into the dead short.

    The reason for the busbars (or otherwise exactly equal cable lengths) is that batteries have low internal resistance and the higher resistance in your diagram of the cables to the batteries furthest from the main cables will tend to make current sharing uneven.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,517 admin
    Here is a nice overview article on battery systems:

    http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/top-ten-battery-blunders-and-how-avoid-them/page/0/1?v=print

    Not a lot of technical details, but does a good explanation of why we recommend what we do.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • bryhan67bryhan67 Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Great info guys.... What would you recommend for fuse? Size, and type?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,517 admin
    This is the smallest/high current / easy to mount fuse holder I have seen (one or two fuse block versions):

    https://www.bluesea.com/products/category/16/72/Fuse Blocks/Terminal Fuse Blocks (need to order fuses separately)

    http://www.solar-electric.com/installation-parts-and-equipment/midnite/cipr1/infubr.html (not cheap, fuses or holders)

    For the prices, many times, you are better off with large DC Circuit Breakers--Almost as cheap as fuses+holders, and you get an On/Off switch thrown in too.

    http://www.solar-electric.com/installation-parts-and-equipment/midnite/cipr1/stfubr1.html
    http://www.solar-electric.com/installation-parts-and-equipment/midnite/cipr1/high-amperage-inverter-breakers.html

    You will become a fuse/breaker expert--Whether you want to or not.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • bryhan67bryhan67 Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    For the battery bank I have what size amp should I do on each string? Does it matter if its on the + or - side?   Also these look simple for now until I switch it all up to 48v..  I could attach theses directly to each of the 5 batteries. 

    http://www.solar-electric.com/installation-parts-and-equipment/midnite/cipr1/stfubr1.html


  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    There is a lot of expense involved in trying to use 5 batteries in parallel... fuses. bus bars, etc. And for what?  You will have an unstable, short-lived battery bank even if you have perfect wiring. 

    You can put 8 of those T-105's in series to make a 48 volt system.... how much will it cost to make the switch to 48 volts?  And how much of that number will you spend trying to avoid 48 volts? (bus bars, fuses, conduit, electrical boxes, battery cables, etc).

    Sizing of the fuses is tricky... If they are too large, you don't have adequate protection.  If they are too small, you may run into cascading failure. 

    Cascading failure:  Suppose that the peak current you will ever draw from the battery bank is 500 amps.  You put a 150 amp fuse in each of the 5 battery strings.  If one battery has a poor or corroded connection or has high resistance, you would be drawing the 500 amps from just 4 strings... 125 amps per string in theory.

    In practice, the batteries will not be perfectly balanced... as soon as one battery exceeds 150 amps, its fuse will blow and the 500 amps will be drawn from the remaining 3 strings, causing their fuses to blow in a cascade of dollars spent.

    I don't know what advice to give regarding fuse size for individual battery strings... I would never design a system in which the question needs to be asked or answered.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • bryhan67bryhan67 Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Gotcha.... This is only temporary until I figure out what inverter to get..  Now need to decide 24v or 48v for inverter. Any affordable recommendations? Seems to me a lot of 24v inverters available and lower cost.. 
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