Playing with an idea and just want others thoughts about it.

nobody316nobody316 Registered Users Posts: 3
First I do know and understand the differences between the batteries and the uses for the batteries. I'm playing with the idea of not needing solar or wind but to have a 100% self sustaining system using shallow cycle batteries. I am thinking if I was to setup an alternator system using more than 1 but no real number set yet to charge the batteries. Would use something like a big heavy duty type fan motor and have rpm's I'm guessing around 5k. If one would use a dc motor there would be no need for a converter for that part. Depending on the motor's rpm I am thinking 4 alternators. Now granted there isn't a set number of batteries either atleast 1 lol but thinking up to 4 running a 12v system. In the end it will be connected to a 2k or 3k power inverter to use for heater. Deep cycle is designed to be discharged thus I'm playing with the idea of the shallow cycle batteries and to be charging all the time using the alternator system. Maybe if the system is great possibly upgrading for full house use. I do know by using this system I will have to keep an eye on the batteries. Since it will be used mostly just like in a car I think it would last just as long as if it was in a car and yes I know each battery is different and has different lifespans.

Years ago I know it wasn't possible because we just didn't have the technology that we have today. We have better motor's that pull less power and have higher rpm's. I had this idea about 30 years ago and wanting to get off the grid it has resurfaced again thus playing around with it. If you only want to say it's not worth it just don't post. If you see any problems in it let me know or if it just might work. There could be tons of ways to expand it or to just use to power a deep cycle charger for when I build my solar and wind system as a back up or only run at night. I do know this is just an idea that's being played with and nothing is set in stone about it. I gave rough idea's for what it will be used for as anything could change the design of it or even use of it. I'm going to build it just for fun and see how well it works but I am not only seeking to use just it as being for off grid power only though it could turn into that if it works great.

So what's your thoughts and idea's on this?

Comments

  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    You will not be able to patent your idea because the patent office does not issue patents for perpetual motion.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Mountain DonMountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2015 #3
    Let's see if I understand this. You plan on using a few batteries to power a DC motor that will drive one or more alternators that will produce sufficient electricity to maintain the batteries charge AND provide a surplus of electricity for powering various devices around the home. 

    If this works why do you need batteries in the middle? Just put a rope around the motor / alternator shaft and give a tug to get it spinning. Magic will take over from there. 


    Sigh.


    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015 #4
    ...
    ...
    If this works why do you need batteries in the middle? Just put a rope around the motor / alternator shaft and give a tug to get it spinning. Magic will take over from there. 

    Sigh.
    Gee, I wish I had thought of that. Have you applied for a patent?



    More seriously (but not much), the batteries are necessary to accumulate the small over unity gain over time to allow you to run large loads for a shorter time. Anybody should be able to see that. o:)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • WaterWheelWaterWheel Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭✭

    Ahhh,,, another mad scientist... at least that's what I call them when they want a water wheel (what I build for a living) to run a pump that will not only run the water wheel but also provide electricity.         After one call to me most give up but a few are persistent when it comes to perpetual motion.    

    Usually when I explain friction and pump inefficiencies they give up but sometimes it takes several emails/calls.

    Conext XW6848 with PDP, SCP, 80/600 controller, 60/150 controller and Conext battery monitor

    21 SW280 panels on Schletter ground mount

    48v Rolls 6CS 27P

  • CALLDCALLD Solar Expert Posts: 230 ✭✭
    edited November 2015 #6
    Lol, I love all these people that chase after the "free energy" concept. The challenges we face as humanity isn't about how to get energy from nothing, it's about how to convert energy from abundant sources like sunshine etc cheaply and in large quantities. We don't need more energy - there's more of it out there than we'll ever need! We just need to convert it, store it & use it - cheaply and easily!
    The day we can buy decent quality PV at 10cent per watt and decent quality battery storage at $10 per kWh our energy challenges will be over.
  • nobody316nobody316 Registered Users Posts: 3
    Do remember I had this idea over 30 years ago. Long before solar and wind technology really became available to us. It's not about free energy It's about making the dreams I had come to life now that the technology is available to do so. I am not saying it will be cheap or work better than any other system. Do remember this...  

    I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.

    Thomas A. Edison


    As technology gets better we can always learn and grow from it.  The sun doesn't always shine as the wind doesn't always blow. Meaning the amount that's needed to charge the batteries and still run the house. We have now some really powerful alternators and better batteries plus alot of bells and whistles to convert dc to ac power and things in between . This idea is not about free energy, to get rich from making it and selling it. It's about making the dreams from long ago come to life and work. Like I said it could have many uses if it will work without the sun, wind or grid power. It would make for a great back up or night only application to keep batteries charged. With a big enough system and power yes it can be sent back into the grid or even run a power line to neighbors house.

    Why would batteries be needed? In short answer to store the power. With the different pulls on the system you wouldn't want to have an overdraw of power. When something like a light or a/c unit kicks on for a short time it puts a major draw on the system. If you use this for the house and turn on many things at once it would draw too just for the alternators alone for up to about 30 seconds. Think of it like the a/c in your car. When it first kicks on and it's nighttime your lights lose some of the brightness until the major draw is done. To help with the draw you will need the batteries stored power. In a car everything pulls from the battery except the running of the engine which is pulled from the alternator.

    By no means do I want to try to sound like an expert. I do know somethings but nowhere near enough to fully break everything down. I just know the batteries will be needed. To better help with the load and keeping it even I have even thought about adding a capacitor or 2 between the battery system and the inverter.

    When I was 4 I built my first computer. It was just over 2 years later when I had the first dream about this. We have most of the things now that was in the dream. Only 2 things are missing and I can not remember what they were or was used for but they were needed. They may not be needed anymore because of the way technology has moved. Someone dreamed about flying and most thought they were idiots but look at us today... we fly. Idea's come from dreams and from the dreams idea's are born. Idea's that are worked on become a part of reality. Just for fun I want to make my dream turn into reality. 


  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Please confirm the system design.  As Mountain Don said:  The batteries will power a motor which will drive an alternator which will charge the batteries?  

    As also stated, that is impossible.  Heat due to friction, charging inefficiency, etc, will all drain energy from the system until the batteries are dead.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • zonebluezoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015 #9
    foolami said:

    Ahhh,,, another mad scientist... at least that's what I call them when they want a water wheel (what I build for a living) to run a pump that will not only run the water wheel but also provide electricity.      

    Actually, this principle does have practical applications. You take some water and run a pelton turbine, connected to a permanent magnet generator, and use the power to run a pump to pump water to a higher head. You obviously lose a bunch of water, but it can in some situatiuons be lower maintenance setup than a ram pump. See http://www.powerspout.com/pump/

    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • nobody316nobody316 Registered Users Posts: 3
    techntrek said:
    Please confirm the system design.  As Mountain Don said:  The batteries will power a motor which will drive an alternator which will charge the batteries?  

    As also stated, that is impossible.  Heat due to friction, charging inefficiency, etc, will all drain energy from the system until the batteries are dead.

    Thought it was clear enough in the first post.  So here it is again. Heavy duty type fan motor high rpm's, high power alternator system, batteries and power inverter. Fan motor will drive the alternator system. Fan motor pulls power from batteries. Alternator will charge the batteries. Power inverter connected to batteries and will power whatever I plug in to it. The system will always have a load being pulled from it. Heat will not be an issue for now maybe in the summer time but I doubt it.

    With a very low draw fan motor the energy for that won't be a problem. Running up to 4 alternators will be more than enough power being put into the system using just a 3k inverter. When I have time I will draw it up and post it. Even when I draw it it will not be a perfect system and fully finished as there is always tweeks to be made or even expanded but it should be a great place to start.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,497 admin
    Motor Generators were popular decades ago... But they are only used for energy conversion (for example, converting 120/240 VAC @ 60 Hz to 230 VAC @ 50 Hz).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor–generator

    Motor Generator sets are typically only ~50% efficient... And have been largely replaced by Electronic Inverter/Converter circuits which are something like 85% to 95% efficient.

    Never had a motor/generator set "run away" by producing more power on the output vs what was supplied on the input.

    If I understand your suggested configuration--You are looking for an Overunity device/system.

    http://www.overunity.com/

    As of this time, there is no theoretical or operational device that will produce power at >100% of input power (that I know of--No expert, but it would be a big deal if/when somebody were to succeed).

    There are thoughts about other ways that power could be obtained from "nothing"--See Zero Point Energy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

    And, there may be ways to obtain, possibly useful, energy from molecular size devices.

    Brownian motor

    At this point, these are not something that are doable by DIY type folks outside of a laboratory on very small scale devices.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    nobody, you need to listen to what all of us are saying.  It isn't possible.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • zonebluezoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭✭
    Yep that idea is about the least likely of all 'over unity' devices id expect to ever work. Get some basic physics books before you invest too many millions into this mate!
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • oil pan 4oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015 #14

    Level of technology is irrelevant when trying to violate known laws of physics.

    You can listen to us or discover on your own the batteries will just quickly discharge.

    If this actually worked then every one would be doing it.

    Do you really think you are the first person to think of this?

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • m151m151 Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    nobody 316, Get some surplus parts and build it. Even if you fail, you will learn a great deal that you can apply to other energy projects. In the last 50 years it seems that there is a new motor on the cover of popular science or mechanics every few months-but nothing ever happens! Go into the garage, get going, and report back your observations and your solutions. Working in the garage is fun!
  • WaterWheelWaterWheel Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭✭
    zoneblue said:
    foolami said:

    Ahhh,,, another mad scientist... at least that's what I call them when they want a water wheel (what I build for a living) to run a pump that will not only run the water wheel but also provide electricity.      

    Actually, this principle does have practical applications. You take some water and run a pelton turbine, connected to a permanent magnet generator, and use the power to run a pump to pump water to a higher head. You obviously lose a bunch of water, but it can in some situatiuons be lower maintenance setup than a ram pump. See http://www.powerspout.com/pump/


    I've discussed that potential many times with my "mad scientists".       It's a system that would always lose energy.

    Conext XW6848 with PDP, SCP, 80/600 controller, 60/150 controller and Conext battery monitor

    21 SW280 panels on Schletter ground mount

    48v Rolls 6CS 27P

  • Mountain DonMountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    Pumping water uphill with solar and later generating electricity with a water wheel powered genarator works. But there is no net gain of energy. Just a non chemical method of storing some energy.
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    oil pan 4 said:

    If this actually worked then every one would be doing it.

    And we wouldn't be burning oil, coal, natural gas, etc.  And whoever thought of it first would be the richest person on Earth.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • MarkCMarkC Solar Expert Posts: 180 ✭✭✭
    . Heavy duty type fan motor high rpm's, high power alternator system, batteries and power inverter. Fan motor will drive the alternator system. Fan motor pulls power from batteries. Alternator will charge the batteries. Power inverter connected to batteries and will power whatever I plug in to it. 
    Put a fan on the fan motor, blow on it hard enough (or put it high enough), disconnect it from the batteries and you have the closest thing to perpetual Earth motion you will find - for now!  Have fun!
    3850 watts - 14 - 275SW SolarWorld Panels, 4000 TL-US SMA Sunny Boy Grid tied inverter.  2760 Watts - 8 - 345XL Solar World Panels, 3000 TL-US SMA Sunny Boy GT inverter.   3000 watts SMA/SPS power.  PV "switchable" to MidNite Classic 250ks based charging of Golf cart + spare battery array of 8 - 155 AH 12V Trojans with an  APC SMT3000 - 48 volt DC=>120 Volt AC inverter for emergency off-grid.   Also, "PriUPS" backup generator with APC SURT6000/SURT003  => 192 volt DC/240 volt split phase AC inverter.  
  • zonebluezoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015 #20
    I didnt say it wouldnt, just that it can be an alternative to a ram pump. Have you ever had to maintain a hydraulic ram pump? I have, for 4 years, and it was somewhat tedius. A ram pump also loses lots of water, but the point is to use lots of water at low head to pump a little water to high head. Sorry to be confusing.
    foolami said:
    zoneblue said:
    foolami said:

    Ahhh,,, another mad scientist... at least that's what I call them when they want a water wheel (what I build for a living) to run a pump that will not only run the water wheel but also provide electricity.      

    Actually, this principle does have practical applications. You take some water and run a pelton turbine, connected to a permanent magnet generator, and use the power to run a pump to pump water to a higher head. You obviously lose a bunch of water, but it can in some situatiuons be lower maintenance setup than a ram pump. See http://www.powerspout.com/pump/


    I've discussed that potential many times with my "mad scientists".       It's a system that would always lose energy.

    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


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