Hybrid solar system installed

Masterjoe
Masterjoe Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭
Hello everyone,

I am new to solar electricity. I recently had a Hybrid system installed which consists of 18 250w panels and 12 24v 390ah batteries with a Xantrex 4024 inverter/charger and an MPPT XW 80/600 charge controller with an SCP. The individual who installed my system knew nothing about programming the system nor do I. I have no idea if it is functioning the way it should. It went online 1 Aug 2015 and so far has only produced 16KWh. When the system goes through the charge cycle the Battery level drops to almost 60% then charges back up. Once fully charged it switches to sell (A) for a brief couple seconds then switches back to charging batteries (Kw), and this cycle continues over and over. I noticed today that when it is doing this it is going from float to bulk stage for a couple of seconds then back to absorption stage. Our electrical usage which I can view online has not changed any since we went online. I want to make sure that the solar array is charging the batteries and the loads of the house and not the grid since we have grid support and sell enabled. I do not have a second meter installed by my electric company yet. If anyone can help me out it would be greatly appreciated. If you need any further info please let me know. Questions that I have are.

If the Grid goes down will I still have power and for how long? I know there is a built in safety feature that disconnects the inverter from the grid. I am told by the guy who installed the system I will still continue to produce power from the solar array that charges the batteries when the grid goes down.

Is the system AC coupled or DC coupled? I think I read that hybrid systems are AC coupled

When if ever do the batteries need to be equalized?

How can I be sure the system is running and producing properly and efficiently?

The batteries are charging at night why would this be?

How can I tell if the power that charges the batteries is coming from the solar array and not the grid?

How long is a complete charge cycle?
4.5kw 24v System
18 Solartec 250w polycrystalline panels
Xantrex XW4024 Inverter/Charger
Conext MPPT 80-600 Charge Controller
12 Trojan L16G-AC 20 hour 390ah batteries tied in 3 strings at 1170ah total

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Good Afternoon MasterJoe.

    You do not need to create a second thread for the same quesiton--We are all volunteers here so it make take a few hours or a day for a response.

    Also, you have asked a very complicated set of questions--I will attempt to help you with some--And hopefully others can give you some more detailed answers for your hardware.
    Masterjoe wrote: »
    I am new to solar electricity. I recently had a Hybrid system installed which consists of 18 250w panels and 12 24v 390ah batteries with a Xantrex 4024 inverter/charger and an MPPT XW 80/600 charge controller with an SCP. The individual who installed my system knew nothing about programming the system nor do I. I have no idea if it is functioning the way it should. It went online 1 Aug 2015 and so far has only produced 16KWh. When the system goes through the charge cycle the Battery level drops to almost 60% then charges back up. Once fully charged it switches to sell (A) for a brief couple seconds then switches back to charging batteries (Kw), and this cycle continues over and over. I noticed today that when it is doing this it is going from float to bulk stage for a couple of seconds then back to absorption stage.

    For a battery based power system... Look at the battery as the heart of your system and everything that goes on around the battery is to either A--Take stored energy from the battery for loads... or B--To return energy back to the battery bank and/or keep it "floating" and happy.

    So first, read about the Lead Acid Battery--We tend to jump right in--but it is very helpful to understand the beast you are trying to harness. Read through the first one at least:

    http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
    http://www.batteryfaq.org/
    http://batteryuniversity.com/

    Next, I really need to understand what is happening with your battery bank... The Hybrid AC inverter and your Solar Charge controller(s) should be programmed to make you battery happy--And once it is "happy", the excess energy can be fed back into the utility system and turn your meter backwards/give you credits with your utility. There are a lot of "registers" in your hardware that need to be programmed correctly to get the behavior you expect from your system (unfortunately, that is not my area of expertise--So I will be trying for the high level view of what you see or should be seeing).

    If you do not have one, I highly suggest you get a "good enough" DC Current Clamp Digital Multi-Meter (like this one from Sears)--Or get a really nice one from Fluke or similar. Then, some basic information from your battery bank.

    Nominally, what we would expect is the battery bank to be at:
    • ~46.0 volts (11.5 volts @ 12 volt bank) (under load, significantly discharged)
    • to 50.8 volts (12.7 volts @ 12 volts) if 100% full / no loads, to 52-54.4 volts (13.0 to 13.6 volts) "float" (this is long term voltage to keep the battery "floating" or a very mild charging voltage--And if you were selling power back through the grid, it would be the voltage that the Hybrid inverter is holding the battery bank at).
    • To 58.8 volts (14.7 volts) a relatively vigorous charging voltage.
    • And finally at ~60-2 volts a vigorous charge/equalization.
    And note that you have (at least) two different charge controllers in your system... You have the solar charge controller, and the Hybrid AC inverter as a charge controller (taking power from your AC mains/Generator connection) and it is also a "dump" charge controller... Feeding "excess" solar power backwards through your AC mains (when conditions are right)--Assuming you have a net metering plan with your utility (to be legal).

    I have to leave right now, but I will have a bit more to say later.

    -Bill
    Our electrical usage which I can view online has not changed any since we went online. I want to make sure that the solar array is charging the batteries and the loads of the house and not the grid since we have grid support and sell enabled. I do not have a second meter installed by my electric company yet. If anyone can help me out it would be greatly appreciated. If you need any further info please let me know. Questions that I have are.

    If the Grid goes down will I still have power and for how long? I know there is a built in safety feature that disconnects the inverter from the grid. I am told by the guy who installed the system I will still continue to produce power from the solar array that charges the batteries when the grid goes down.

    Is the system AC coupled or DC coupled? I think I read that hybrid systems are AC coupled

    When if ever do the batteries need to be equalized?

    How can I be sure the system is running and producing properly and efficiently?

    The batteries are charging at night why would this be?

    How can I tell if the power that charges the batteries is coming from the solar array and not the grid?

    How long is a complete charge cycle?
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Masterjoe wrote: »
    Our electrical usage which I can view online has not changed any since we went online. I want to make sure that the solar array is charging the batteries and the loads of the house and not the grid since we have grid support and sell enabled. I do not have a second meter installed by my electric company yet. If anyone can help me out it would be greatly appreciated. If you need any further info please let me know. Questions that I have are.

    Hybrid solar power systems are quite a complex animal. From a very simple point of view--The solar power controller is designed to put 100% of the solar power from the solar array to the Battery Bank/DC bus--More or less, the controller would be programmed to ~59+ volts (absorb charge).

    The Hybrid AC inverter would then monitor the battery bank voltage. If the loads (AC and DC) exceed the solar power available (night/morning/evening/etc.)--Then the battery voltage would probably be under 46.0 volts--And the battery bank is being discharged (and whatever current is available from the solar array helps reduce battery discharge current).

    Once the solar power available exceeds the loads, then the battery voltage starts to rise... The Hybrid inverter "monitors" the battery bus voltage (and estimated battery state of charge) and let the bus voltage rise to ~58.8 volts. At 58.8 volts, the hybrid inverter starts feeding power back to the grid (running meter backwards). After roughly 2-4 hours of "absorb", the Hybrid inverter will take more energy from the battery bus and bring it down to float voltage (~52-54.4 volts or so).

    So--That is the basic operation. Things get more complex (power outages, selling back to the utility, bad weather, backup genset, etc.). And there are various modes (pure standby/backup--Use grid power at night, feed back energy to the grid when sun is up). Or minimize grid use (only use grid power when battery is below 60% State of charge) and do not feed back to utility. Or other ways of controlling energy use.
    If the Grid goes down will I still have power and for how long? I know there is a built in safety feature that disconnects the inverter from the grid. I am told by the guy who installed the system I will still continue to produce power from the solar array that charges the batteries when the grid goes down.

    There are multiple "safety features". For the utility safety--If the grid voltage fall below ~212 VAC or outside of 60 Hz +/- a few 1/10ths of a Hz. This stops a "GT inverter" from trying to run the entire neighborhood during a power failure (car hits utility pole).

    Of course, there are other "safety features" too (do not over discharge battery bank, do no over charge battery bank, do not over crank genset, etc.).
    Is the system AC coupled or DC coupled? I think I read that hybrid systems are AC coupled

    Your system is "DC Coupled"--The traditional method of Hybrid Solar power.

    And AC Couple system--Setup a Solar array + GT Inverter (no batteries) and connect it to the output of True Sine Wave AC inverter (can be done in conjunction with an automatic transfer-switch).

    The AC Inverter sets the "local grid voltage" to 120/240 VAC at 60 Hz... And the GT inverter simply feeds energy into the local grid voltage as normal (just like it was a "real" utility grid).

    If the AC bus load is less than the GT Inverter's output power--The GT inverter actually pushes energy "backwards" through the Off Grid AC inverter and recharges the DC Battery bank (that is the AC coupling). Now, not all OG Inverters can do this... And you run into questions about how does the DC Battery bank control its state of charge. Newer OG Inverters will vary the AC line frequency by +/- 0.5 Hz or so--This "knocks out" the GT inverter (turns it off for a minimum of 5 minutes).

    While AC coupling can work fine--It is not my first recommendation for designing an integrated solar power system.
    When if ever do the batteries need to be equalized?

    Check your battery manual... In general, for those type of flooded cell batteries, they usually recommend equalizing once a month. If you don't have one (and these are flooded cell batteries), get a good Hydrometer--The gold standard for battery maintenance/understanding their health.

    http://www.solar-electric.com/midnite-solar-battery-hydrometer.html
    How can I be sure the system is running and producing properly and efficiently?

    1. Define your needs (loads, solar array, battery bank size, net metered, zero utility power usage, etc.)
    2. Configure system to meet those needs.
    3. Review how it operates (primarily looking at battery bank voltage and charging/discharging current).
    The batteries are charging at night why would this be?

    Not being flip--but how do you know the batteries are charging at night? And should they be charging at night from the AC mains or not (depends on how the inverter is programmed, battery bank state of charge, etc.).
    How can I tell if the power that charges the batteries is coming from the solar array and not the grid?

    Using an AC/DC current clamp DMM is a good way of "independtly" understand power flow in the system. But, in general, the LCD panel (and tablet/computer access) is pretty accurate (if not confusing in their complexity).
    How long is a complete charge cycle?

    It depends--But if signifcantly discharged battery bank of 50% state of charge with a 10% rate of charge==You are looking at 5-8 hours or so.

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    BB. wrote: »


    It depends--But if significantly discharged battery bank of 50% state of charge with a 10% rate of charge==You are looking at 5-8 hours or so.

    -Bill
    With the additional proviso that the amount of current that the battery can safely accept will vary with its State Of Charge (SOC).
    For a Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) battery the maximum current you want to supply will be roughly C/8 where C is the battery bank capacity in Amp-Hours (AH).
    If you charge at an initial rate of C/10 (Bill's 10%), you will get from 50% to about 80% in about three hours. Where it goes from there depends on the battery type and charge controller (CC) settings, but it will slow down a lot.
    Some batteries, on their recommended voltage settings, will take up to 10 hours just to get from 80% to 100%. Not the best configuration for pure solar.
    And whether you can get there in one day using just solar PV will be questionable, since the number of operating hours of the panels and CC are limited by your sun exposure.

    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    You had someone "hopefully a professional" install your system, without checking qualifications???

    Doesn't make sense to me that logic. Most of my clients won't sign unless, I am scrutinized and questioned about every aspect of their systems.

    Under state and federal laws, that installer is suppose to know every aspect of that system to satisfy 10year structural/labor warranty. If something goes wrong with that system. That installer has to be 100% accountable for that error.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    You had someone "hopefully a professional" install your system, without checking qualifications???

    Doesn't make sense to me that logic. Most of my clients won't sign unless, I am scrutinized and questioned about every aspect of their systems.

    Under state and federal laws, that installer is suppose to know every aspect of that system to satisfy 10year structural/labor warranty. If something goes wrong with that system. That installer has to be 100% accountable for that error.


    Where are you that this happens? I spend at least 25% of my time fixing "professional" installations/designs. I guess you covered yourself by stating that it is just state and federal law.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭


    Where are you that this happens? I spend at least 25% of my time fixing "professional" installations/designs. I guess you covered yourself by stating that it is just state and federal law.

    Well first off clients are spending damn near between $16,000 and $40,000 cash on my system installs.

    I'm asked 100's off questions about level of competence, system operations before clients even get into signing contracts. Majority of my clients are in Silicon Valley (Sunnyvale, Cupertino, SanJose, etc).

    Most of them are tech gurus also working in programming, low voltage, and medium voltage companies.

    If I didn't know what I was talking about I wouldn't get the job. LOL

    Secondly my 2 million aggregate, 1 million per occurrence commercial insurance has what is called a 3 year sunset clause which covers those systems 3 years after the system is energized. Minus theft, or catastrophe if it were to occur during system energizing.

    CA state law, along with FED law states, the contractor of record is held accountable for the system operations of that system even including any irregularities through the design build process. Contractor is held to the statute of limitations for 10years for the structural/mechanical aspects of that system. Everything from operations and Maintenance, to even a simple roof leak.

    Make sure contractors know every aspect of that system before signing contract including "all mechanical aspects".

    This is also suppose to be full open disclosure at the time of contract signing. Contractors are suppose to disclose all this information up front. Reason being if a 3rd party contractor comes in to do work while the installing contractor is under warranty. It will void warranty with installation contractor because it's considered tampering with installing contractors warranty.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Masterjoe wrote: »
    It went online 1 Aug 2015 and so far has only produced 16KWh.

    Welcome.... you have a system similar to mine in one way, we both only produce ~1.5 Kwh per day...... because we only use that amount.
    If you use more you will produce more battery charging. You hhave not mentioned your loads.... wht are they?
    I normally power a fridge , sat internet, wifi modem all day and a pair of computers... at night a TV with small stereo for sound from the tv for up to 3...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Masterjoe
    Masterjoe Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭
    I will be responding to the replies to my other topic in due course, thank you for those replies. One thing I have noticed is the recharge volts are set at 27v the LBCO is set at 23v and Grid support volts is 32v. Battery voltage is being maintained at 28.8v. Considering batt voltage needs to be 2v higher than LBCO and 2v lower than Grid support volts it would be better to have it set at 25v, but can all these voltages be set lower for maximum performance? So these batteries even at night are always being maintained at 100% and are always going through a charge cycle unless at night they are in AC pass through mode until a charge cycle is needed. What would the proper voltages be to use these batteries efficiently and get the maximum life out of them? Also noted in the charge controller sub panel INV in (Grid) is on, Grid Bypass is off, and INV out (AC Loads) is on. Is this configuration correct?

    Thank you all for your continued support and expertise

    UPDATE: I went and set the recharge volts to 25v and we have been passing almost 1450w back to the utility and the battery voltage is maintaining around 26.6v but the green charge light on the charge controller is flashing at a very fast rate. Just want to make sure this is ok. The battery temp is 76f and the state is ACGOOD.
    4.5kw 24v System
    18 Solartec 250w polycrystalline panels
    Xantrex XW4024 Inverter/Charger
    Conext MPPT 80-600 Charge Controller
    12 Trojan L16G-AC 20 hour 390ah batteries tied in 3 strings at 1170ah total
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    MasterJoe,

    I have moved your post to the original thread--It makes it easier for everyone reading if the same topic posts are kept in the same thread.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Masterjoe
    Masterjoe Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭
    Bill

    Normally the system is in (Kw) and will flip to (A) for like 10 seconds then back to (Kw) and the bat level will drop to about 60%then charge back up to 100% and repeat nearly all day long. This is when inverter/charger recharge volts is at 27v and battery voltage is 28.8 when fully charged. Our electrical usage has not really changed since this system went online 1 Aug 2015. Again we do not have net metering yet as our utility has not installed the second meter. The batteries are always being maintained at 100%. From what I see and read the Xantrex 4024 inverter/charger is a true sine wave AC inverter. I do not know the batteries are being charged at night, what I should have said was I noticed a few times at night go through a charge cycle out of AC pass through mode. Now when I did the experiment at arund 9 am ESt I set the recharge volts on the inverter/charger to 25v 2 volts above LBCO. We immediately went into (A) sell to grid where we remained for quite some time. Battery voltage was 26.6v and AC1 was a positive 1400+. I went to work and called home around 4 pm EST and wife said battery voltage was at 25.4v and battery level had finally dropped to 75%. When I got home at 9:30pm EST battery voltage was at 25.6v and battery level was at around 95%. We have remained in AC pass through mode for the remainder of the evening and at 2:40am EST battery level is still 95% and battery voltage is 25.6v. It appears to me in this experiment that our loads have slightly increased by almost half what they normally were when the recharge volts were set at 27v I am not sure why this is.

    Solarpowered

    Yes, I had someone professionally install the system. He deals primarily with grid and off grid systems so this is one of the first hybrid systems he has installed with the Xantrex 4024 inverter/chargers with the MPPT 80/600 charge controller. I asked him all the questions I could think of, then again I am very knew and a bit naive to all of this solar stuff lol.

    Dave

    We live just outside Petersburg, VA

    Westbranch

    My loads are typically 300+w at night around 700-800w during the day with about 1900-2100w when the well pump or microwave are on. We power a computer, 2 refrigerators, 2 large top load freezers, 2 vcr's, 2 dishnetwork receivers, and 2 ceiling fans when needed. Sometimes a few more things too but relatively below 850w. All high demand appliances are still on the grid.

    I can post some system settings and advanced settings if it will help some users with my dilemma.
    4.5kw 24v System
    18 Solartec 250w polycrystalline panels
    Xantrex XW4024 Inverter/Charger
    Conext MPPT 80-600 Charge Controller
    12 Trojan L16G-AC 20 hour 390ah batteries tied in 3 strings at 1170ah total
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    What size of battery bank do you have?

    Cycling the battery bank to 60% state of charge a few hours into the night? If so, either your battery bank is very small and/or your loads are quite high (vs system capacity).

    Nominally, I would be suggesting that you discharge the battery bank by 25% per day for two days to 50% capacity--Then use the grid/genset to recharge (if there is not enough sun/large enough array).

    And how do you want the system to operate?

    If you (and your utility) are not setup for net metering yet--I would be suggesting that the system charges batteries from solar during the days and support your day time AC loads once the battery bank is full. Do not discharge the battery bank at night (except if there is a power failure).

    An alternative would be to allow the battery to discharge at night (supplying AC loads) until the battery hits 75% state of charge--Then system goes to "pass through mode" (uses utility power for loads), then when the sun rises again, the solar power charges the battery bank until full (wash, rinse, repeat). This would allow you to use most/all of the available solar power each day. HOWEVER--Your are cycling the battery bank--In general, the battery bank will only last 100's to a 1,000 cycles being deeply cycled every night--That means replacing the battery bank about once per year...

    That is the reason why for hybrid systems... Battery bank stay 100% charged and the system uses the utility grid like a giant "AC Battery Bank". The batteries are always charged and ready for an outage, but only (for the most part) float--And should last many years between change out (hopefully 6-8+ years (or longer for some types of batteries like fork lift). During the day, the excess solar power "recharges" the grid (turns meter backwards) and "discharges" the grid at night (meter runs forwards).

    You don't want (typically) to charge from the grid at night and sell during the day (for me, buy at $0.10 per kWH and sell at $0.30 to $0.50 per kWHr during the summer). While this looks good, the cost of cycling the battery bank (and system losses) make this around a "break even" situation at best (at least it would for me). And for some utilities, this is "illegal"--And a few utilities do not even allow hybrid systems just because there is this capability (buying cheap power at night and selling it back during the day). They use the argument that this violates the "spirit" (and intent of the law/regulations) of "green energy".

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Masterjoe
    Masterjoe Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭
    Bill

    Best answer I have at the moment is 12 6v 390ah batteries supposed to be wired in 3 strings. I would like the system to operate as you suggested for the batteries to last many years.
    BB. wrote: »
    That is the reason why for hybrid systems... Battery bank stay 100% charged and the system uses the utility grid like a giant "AC Battery Bank". The batteries are always charged and ready for an outage, but only (for the most part) float--And should last many years between change out (hopefully 6-8+ years (or longer for some types of batteries like fork lift). During the day, the excess solar power "recharges" the grid (turns meter backwards) and "discharges" the grid at night (meter runs forwards).

    So if I want the system to operate in the manner you suggest above the recharge volts should then remain at 27v like it has been to keep the battery bank fully charged all the time? The fully charged voltage is 28.8v. Not sure what the settings should be set to. Now batteries are happy when they are near fully discharged and then charged back up, does this not apply in this situation as well?
    4.5kw 24v System
    18 Solartec 250w polycrystalline panels
    Xantrex XW4024 Inverter/Charger
    Conext MPPT 80-600 Charge Controller
    12 Trojan L16G-AC 20 hour 390ah batteries tied in 3 strings at 1170ah total
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    I am not the guy to ask about specific programming for your Hybrid inverter--I would have to go through the manual and figure out the specific programming to set it up. And I do not have any of that type of hardware to test/verify at my house (simple grid tie system for me).

    But, basically, you want:
    • Inverter and mppt charge controller networked so they can work together.
    • Get/connect remote battery temperature sensor (always a good idea)
    • selling to grid turned off.
    • grid charging turned off (use just solar--Otherwise you are going to consume even more utiltiy power to float the battery bank--Turn on grid charging if needed during stormy weather--if needed).
    • there is a load support function of some sort where excess solar power can support AC local loads during the day (this is only on the "protected" output of the inverter). Note that even in this mode, the Hybrid Inverter will still consume some couple hundred watts from the AC mains--It does not consume zero watts (may be a side effect of ensuring that it does not feed back energy to the utility).
    • Recharge voltage--27.0 volts may be a little high (13.5 volts @ 12 volt bank)--You may want to use closer to 25.0 volts (12.5 volts)--This means the battery has actually been discharged a bit and "recharging" is indicated.
    Cycling the battery bank to ~75% to 80% state of charge once per month for standard deep cycle batteries has been suggested by some folks as a good idea... Exercising the battery gives longer "float" life (mixes up the electrolyte, reforms the plates)--And testing/verifying your hardware too (is working for next "real" emergency power situation).

    Get a "good enough" DC/AC current Clamp Digital Multi-Meter (like this one from Sears--Or better). And a good Hydrometer (rinse after use using a couple squirts of distilled water--otherwise will get sticky residue inside). You need to check the battery bank at least once per month (check battery voltages, temperatures, electrolyte levels, and electrolyte SG--Log your readings). With this many batteries/connections--You are looking for "differences" (something too low or too high)--If you find a difference, you need to figure out why that is happening.

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Masterjoe wrote: »
    Bill


    Solarpowered

    Yes, I had someone professionally install the system. He deals primarily with grid and off grid systems so this is one of the first hybrid systems he has installed with the Xantrex 4024 inverter/chargers with the MPPT 80/600 charge controller. I asked him all the questions I could think of, then again I am very knew and a bit naive to all of this solar stuff lol.

    Dave

    We live just outside Petersburg, VA


    I can post some system settings and advanced settings if it will help some users with my dilemma.

    Pretty typical situation here. One of the hardest installations with the least knowledge. All those Federal and State laws are pretty useless unless you want to deal with lawyers.
    The Green light flashing on the xw mppt -80 -600v is an indication of the charger working correctly and will flash faster with a load. If you need help I beta tested that controller when Schneider was Xantrex.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    Masterjoe wrote: »



    Solarpowered

    Yes, I had someone professionally install the system. He deals primarily with grid and off grid systems so this is one of the first hybrid systems he has installed with the Xantrex 4024 inverter/chargers with the MPPT 80/600 charge controller. I asked him all the questions I could think of, then again I am very knew and a bit naive to all of this solar stuff lol.

    .

    That's the problem though. Your contractor should be having licensing rights (while you own the system) to the monitoring solutions for the 10 year statute of limitations. Monitoring all aspects of the system, included and not limited to setting the charge controller setting for the battery system.

    Your battery manufacturer wont or may not cover you on battery defects, or honor the warranty if you install and set the charge settings yourself.

    My professional experience is that I register all aspects of the system as the professional installer and when something goes wrong, and I can explain and provide the diagnostic issues, the warranty is sufficed for replacement. Now that is covered under the manufacturers warranty of replacement. You still have to pay contractor to replace those items even under the 10 year statute of labor warranty, if it is found there was not a defective issue that was caused during the time if labor install.

    Your contractor should be chiming in on this discussion. Owners should also be aware that the contractor is on the hook for 10 years, and if owner outsources repairs to another contractor it voids the warranty, if owners themselves modify, change, or do repairs to any critical aspects of the system it is as well considered tampering and voids warranty with that contractor.

    That is what I am trying to to imply and hope you understand. You paid money for a contractor to do the work. The point of the professionalism to to honor warranty. Other than that you could of installed yourself. People pay peace of mind for professionalism, that's about all it is.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I have never had any trouble with warranty for my clients other than the hassle of dealing with it. It is pretty rare other than batteries and even there it is almost always the owner just not doing what I told them to do. Even this is so rare because my offgrid clients are pretty amazing people 95% of the time. The charge controllers log all the data I need for the other 5% for years.

    The way I think of professionalism is to train the user so there never is a need for warranty, lawyers, and sleeping poorly at night.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    I have never had any trouble with warranty for my clients other than the hassle of dealing with it. It is pretty rare other than batteries and even there it is almost always the owner just not doing what I told them to do. Even this is so rare because my offgrid clients are pretty amazing people 95% of the time. The charge controllers log all the data I need for the other 5% for years.

    The way I think of professionalism is to train the user so there never is a need for warranty, lawyers, and sleeping poorly at night.


    Yeah but if there is ever manufacturer warranty defect, anything from the inverter, or panels under year 10. Contractor replaces for the client at the a rate to charge a compensation for labor, and the manufacturer free of charge should be replacing the item.

    I just make it clear with the clients, if something under warranty malfunctions, call me first.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Offgrid, who ya gonna call? Other than Ghost-busters it is all up to the owner! Try getting warranty in Yellowknife or 100 miles out of Fairbanks. Completely different than the Silly Valley.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Masterjoe
    Masterjoe Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭
    Ok sorry for not being so smart here. I thought we were on our way to having issues corrected. I ran into another situation today being home i noticed that at 1:00pm the battery bank was not fully charged (4 lights lit) power was being sold to the grid. Our load was around 980 watts and AC1 is showing -1300?? watts. I want to make sure this power was coming from the batteries and not the grid otherwise I am defeating the purpose. I also noted the battery voltage on the inverter was reading 25.6v (recharge volts set to 25v) and was in selltogrid mode. The CC was reading the battery voltage as 26.4v and was in float state. I called Schneider Electric and explained all this to them. First thing was the network cables were not in the right slots. The terminators were in the SCP and in the AC slot in the inverter. Schneider had me put the terminator in the CC and a few minutes later the entire system shut off, I got a warning light, and then the system powered back up and both the inverter and CC were reading the same voltage. So now I assume they are both working together now. Schneider also suggested my problem was also that I could go in and set the sellblock start and stop. However when I went to do that neither sellblock start or stop brackets have anything in them (no 0.00) to set a time. I am supposed to call Schneider back tomorrow and give them a system update, while they research why nothing appears in the bracket. Schneider rep had no idea why nothing would show up when we have all proper F/W revisions. So I suppose what i am confused about is during the day when my battery bank is not fully charged and AC1 is showing negative watts, is that coming from the batteries? Next I know the charge controller is supposed to charge the battery bank. The inverter also has a charger, so what is the purpose of that charger? If I have recharge volts set at 25v and the inverter shows battery voltage above 25v and we never have reach 25v at night before the sun comes up, does the inverter charge the batteries? What I see is in the morning the inverter charges the battery bank until full and then goes into selltogrid the rest of the day and by 1:00pm the battery bank is 4 lights lit. Also when the battery bank is fully charged why would the battery voltage on the scp read 25.9v for say the inverter? I apologize if i am not making any sense here, I am just frustrated. Like other users have said i invested all this money into the system and the installer should be doing this, but when the installer gives you something they themselves know nothing about because they don't really deal with hybrid systems and gave you all the manuals to learn the system, what are you to do. Heck for the last 26 days the network cables weren't even hooked p right. It took me to notice the voltage difference to know that isn't right and phone Schneider. I really really appreciate everyones knowledge, expertise and help. Someday this will all click for me and be entered into my knowledge bank.
    4.5kw 24v System
    18 Solartec 250w polycrystalline panels
    Xantrex XW4024 Inverter/Charger
    Conext MPPT 80-600 Charge Controller
    12 Trojan L16G-AC 20 hour 390ah batteries tied in 3 strings at 1170ah total
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    The battery lights on an XW inverter / charger are for basic installation indication. They are just about useless! If you like Lawyers you can sue the installer as was suggested here.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    Yeah this is an installer error for sure.
    It would be nice to see a one line, it appears something in the system failed due to installer error.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah this is an installer error for sure.
    It would be nice to see a one line, it appears something in the system failed due to installer error.


    Or, like what Win 10 does now, "something happened"
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Masterjoe wrote: »
    ...
    I recently had a Hybrid system installed which consists of 18 250w panels and 12 24v 390ah batteries with a Xantrex 4024 inverter/charger and an MPPT XW 80/600 charge controller with an SCP ...

    Hi Masterjoe,

    Cannot find any reference to the following questions in the Threads dealing with your system, so have a few questions;

    OK, you appear to have a 24 V battery bank, and Inverter. You appear to have ONE XW MPPT 80 600 Charge Controller (CC), and the CC is connected to 18ea 250 W PV modules. The STC power of the PVs is about 4500 watts. Let's apply a reasonable derating of 75% for the maximum nominal power available from the PVs, in full sun + about 3375 watts. On a 24 V system, this could represent about 140 Amps maximum that the CC could try to pass to the batteries and the Grid.

    Using what has been described as AN XW MPPT 80 600, which implies one, single, individual CC. Perhaps that is an inaccurate reference, and there are really TWO XW CCs. It may be a bit difficult for Masterjoe to be able distinguish just what are all of those grey boxes lined up on the wall ...

    Does any other person see any issues with a single 80-ish Amp CC on this 24 V system? Perhaps I am missing more than a few items.

    There is the impolite question of just why is this fairly large system 24 V, with three strings of batteries, but that matters little now ...

    Had asked Mj, eleewere, if he could make a Signature, and hope the he will, as it might help all of us trying to decode the details ...

    FWIW, Curious Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • Masterjoe
    Masterjoe Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭
    Don't know how but I totally missed this post. I do sincerely apologize and thank you for your diligent assistance in helping a new guy here. I am learning quickly for sure. Schneider as I read has not come out with their string sizing tool yet. I did post a question to http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/controller-folder/Xantrex-MPPT-80-600.html. Yes wasting about half the capability of this (OVERSIZED) system would be an added waste of money. As I also learned sending excess power back to the utility even in a coop without a net meter agreement will not result in a credit, but an actual thank you for the extra power and we kindly charge you for producing it. Did not receive the bill yet. One yes one lonely CC is hanging on the wall lol, and the F54 fault is for the Ground Fault Protect fuse which is in the CC not on the array as I had thought, so exactly what happened is my guess since it is in the house. Two questions that still seem puzzling and I have not found anyone even at Schneider who knows is 1. Why after the CC finishes with absorption does the voltage go from 28.8 to float state at 26.7. 2. Some days the array puts out a mass amount of watts and other days very little to nothing. Like a completely cloudy day and producing 6.8Kw to a perfectly sunny day and absolutely nothing. I have done as much research as I could find so far and all I can figure is it is dependent also on the angle the sunlight hits the panels. If the angle is not right the sunlight will reflect off rather than be absorbed, but come on all day long?? But somehow the batteries always manage to be charged enough that when 8:00 or 9:00 at night I have 25.4v - 25.6v to survive off of at night until sunrise.
    4.5kw 24v System
    18 Solartec 250w polycrystalline panels
    Xantrex XW4024 Inverter/Charger
    Conext MPPT 80-600 Charge Controller
    12 Trojan L16G-AC 20 hour 390ah batteries tied in 3 strings at 1170ah total
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Hi Masterjoe,

    Thanks for the reply, and the information.

    As BB Bill noted, previously, Hybrid systems are complex. There are several strategies in programming them. And there are a number of differing goals that the users have. I have no experience, whatsoever with Grid-connected systems.

    Others who know of these systems may have answers for you.

    More Later. Good Luck!! Thanks, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.