If you're NOT DIY ...

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lasitter
lasitter Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
And just did a bare bones (no battery backup / charge controller / etc) array of roof mount panels and minimum grid tie equipment, how much installed capacity do you think you could get for $30k?

If you started off with a kit like this:

GTK-02: 3,825 Watt Grid-tie Solar Power System with 48 VDC Battery Backup and 3,600 Watt Inverter

What do you think would be a reasonable price range for installation labor for the basic kit?

Looking at this panel:
KD-255GX-LFB2: Kyocera KD255GX-LFB2 255 Watt Multicrystalline Solar Module

It looks like each additional kilowatt (four panels?) would be $1,000, plus mounting rails and brackets (and stuff). What do you think would be a reasonable amount of labor for additional panels installed at the same time as the basic kit?

If you wanted to double / triple the generating capacity, what things (like battery capacity) could you leave in place without doubling / tripling parts?

There are lots of kits out there. Is there a favorite thread / forum where people have identified what is junk and what's the good stuff? Or is it much more about the skill of the installer?
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Sizing all goes by load for both off gird and to obtain your grid tie goals.

    May I ask why you want to go off grid with some of this? Most people with reliable line AC find that grid tie give much more bang for the buck, off grid is about double on the initial installation for equipment. Around here panel installation and hook up goes for about $1 a watt, I am think off grid will be more for the installation, especially if it needs local code inspection which includes a full design approved by the code dudes.
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  • pleppik
    pleppik Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
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    If you're not DIY, I'd forget about buying the gear yourself, and just get bids from different installers for a complete system with installation. They're probably able to buy the hardware cheaper than you can, and they know exactly what to buy so they won't forget some crucial piece of equipment or order way too much of something.

    Pricing is highly dependent on your local market. Ask for cash bids (no financing), and expect bids to come in between $3 and $5/watt installed depending on where you live.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
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    pleppik wrote: »
    If you're not DIY, I'd forget about buying the gear yourself, and just get bids from different installers for a complete system with installation. They're probably able to buy the hardware cheaper than you can, and they know exactly what to buy so they won't forget some crucial piece of equipment or order way too much of something.

    Pricing is highly dependent on your local market. Ask for cash bids (no financing), and expect bids to come in between $3 and $5/watt installed depending on where you live.


    Excellent advice above! I use to work in Marine Engineering and when it was slow I would help the installers getting marine electronics installed. They really liked it when the owner had his own equipment because it was just time and materials and if anything went wrong there was just more time and materials. Not really a warranty.

    I would ask for bids that can be installed at the convenience of the company to get the best price. You have until 13/31/16 to have it installed for the Federal Tax credit unless they do something in Congress. What a joke that is!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • lasitter
    lasitter Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭✭
    #5
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    solar_dave wrote: »
    May I ask why you want to go off grid with some of this?
    I don't. I just picked a kit offered Northern Arizona Wind & Sun as a starting off point.

    Then I suggested stripping it back to a bare bones plus grid-tie hardware setup, asking what you might hope to get for $30k. That number is one quoted by a vendor for an 8kw roof mounted system, with no batteries, etc.
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  • lasitter
    lasitter Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭✭
    #6
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    pleppik wrote: »
    Pricing is highly dependent on your local market. Ask for cash bids (no financing), and expect bids to come in between $3 and $5/watt installed depending on where you live.

    So 8000 watts installed for $30k is something like $3.75 per watt? And that's likely a good deal?

    The other part of my query was to do with the installed cost of each marginal additional kilowatt.

    https://www.anapode.com/products/15000w_15kw_Complete_Solar_Panel_Module_Kit_DIY

    This kit is about $30k for all the parts plus a $1,250 upgrade to Enphase M250 Microinverters.

    Looks like around $2 per watt. Is it junk?

    What would be a fair cost in labor to install it, given a normal roof and no special challenges?
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    You don't tell us where your at but usually a reputable installer can do about the same, I have heard of local deals here for about $3.00 a watt up and running. The link you show is for a 15K watt system I can't advise you on which Enphase converter will work the best but generally micro inverters will produce slightly more power and are good in partial shade environments because each panel has it own inverter. Central grid-tie inverters like sunny boy generally are cheaper to install overall.
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  • lasitter
    lasitter Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭✭
    #8
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    solar_dave wrote: »
    You don't tell us where your at but usually a reputable installer can do about the same, I have heard of local deals here for about $3.00 a watt up and running.

    I'm in western Mass and the lot is full sun.

    Something I'm trying to get a handle on is the marginal cost of installment labor.

    With "deployment" cost, just getting guys to show up and start work means that the cost of the first installed panel is a million dollars (way expensive) and the rest are dirt cheap.

    So if your first increment of 30 panels goes in for $3/watt, what do you think the cost per watt would be for each additional four panels (or per additional kilowatt).

    Thanks.
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  • pleppik
    pleppik Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
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    lasitter wrote: »

    So 8000 watts installed for $30k is something like $3.75 per watt? And that's likely a good deal?
    It might be a good deal. It might not. It depends on your local market. Get some more quotes and compare prices.
    The other part of my query was to do with the installed cost of each marginal additional kilowatt.

    https://www.anapode.com/products/150...Module_Kit_DIY

    This kit is about $30k for all the parts plus a $1,250 upgrade to Enphase M250 Microinverters.

    Looks like around $2 per watt. Is it junk?
    Not necessarily.
    What would be a fair cost in labor to install it, given a normal roof and no special challenges?

    There's no way for some random guy on the Internet (like me) to guess what a fair price to install a PV system on your roof would be, having no idea about where you live, what your roof is like, what the permitting and inspection requirements are in your area, what the local labor market is like, etc. Get some real quotes from some real installers who can come out and actually look at your roof and have some experience with what it will really cost. If you want to understand the marginal costs, ask for quotes for different sized systems.

    Based on what I've heard from other people and the installer I worked with for my own PV system, the hardware is likely going to be between 25% and 75% of the installed price of any system. So spending $3.75/W installed for a system which costs $2/W for just the hardware is in the right ballpark.

    Keep in mind that you aren't going to hire minimum-wage day laborers to install PV. You want experienced PV installers, and you will be required to hire a licensed electrician to hook it up to the grid. There's also system design, permitting, inspections, scheduling and logistics, etc. And of course at the end of the day the installer needs to make at least a little profit.
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  • kell490
    kell490 Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭
    #10
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    I have been watching this guy on yoututbe he installed a small 1400 watt system using the same grid tied inverters his total came $2290 after tax rebates I took out his $300 permit cost as that is a fixed price about $1.63 a watt. I'm planning on doing my own system installers are going to charge about double what you can buy the system from what the bids I got so far. This guy in the video will sell his entire plan for $5 you can scale it up to work on your roof change it around some he did a good job on laying out what it takes to do it right.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llxGlKUQUXI
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
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    kell490 wrote: »
    I have been watching this guy on yoututbe he installed a small 1400 watt system using the same grid tied inverters his total came $2290 after tax rebates I took out his $300 permit cost as that is a fixed price about $1.63 a watt. I'm planning on doing my own system installers are going to charge about double what you can buy the system from what the bids I got so far. This guy in the video will sell his entire plan for $5 you can scale it up to work on your roof change it around some he did a good job on laying out what it takes to do it right.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llxGlKUQUXI


    What you are talking about makes sense to me and I have done this for friends who do their own work. The part that makes no sense to me is someone who does not do the work, trying to save maybe 20% of the cost and then depending on the specifics of their roof, ending up with a crappy installation that they know very little about!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • kell490
    kell490 Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭
    #12
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    Crappy installations are usually due to being lazy and cutting corners which ins't just reserved for the DIY guy. The internet has a wealth of information if one learns how to do it correctly you can save money. I have paid good money for contractors had terrible results end up fighting with them at the ROC then end up as a creditor on a bankruptcy. Probably why I hardly ever hire anyone to do anything at my home just never get good work. If you do they charge 10 times what you could do it yourself. If one educates them self then at least they have a good understanding what the contractor is doing and you can check their work.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #13
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    kell490 wrote: »
    Crappy installations are usually due to being lazy and cutting corners which ins't just reserved for the DIY guy. The internet has a wealth of information if one learns how to do it correctly you can save money. I have paid good money for contractors had terrible results end up fighting with them at the ROC then end up as a creditor on a bankruptcy. Probably why I hardly ever hire anyone to do anything at my home just never get good work. If you do they charge 10 times what you could do it yourself. If one educates them self then at least they have a good understanding what the contractor is doing and you can check their work.


    Often bad installation it is due to and owner who does not know what questions to ask or gets bad internet advice. Residential Grid solar is based on your building department requirements which can vary alot. I was not criticizing do it yourself but rather buying the equipment and then hiring someone to do the installation. That makes little sense to me as the real cost saving to an owner is in the labor of the installation. If there is an equipment issue, the installer really has no obligation after the building department/Utility inspection.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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