Love these bright sunny, cloudless days...

HX_GuyHX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
It's been damn cloudy and rainy ever since we officially kicked the system on...except today was a beautiful beautiful day, not a cloud in the sky which resulted in the highest output so far!

349.jpg

And cool little graph from TED...

350.jpg

Red = Consumption
Green = Production
Black = Net

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,022 admin
    Neat! :D

    Worth all of the effort you went through to make it right?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • HX_GuyHX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    BB. wrote: »
    Neat! :D

    Worth all of the effort you went through to make it right?

    -Bill

    Absolutely 100%, especially at what my final price came out to be! :D
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    HX, I understand what the graph is showing , but why is the Solar, green, line not showing as positive by your TED system? ie your production > consumption = net into the grid...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • HX_GuyHX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Westbranch, it's just how the TED handles the figures. Seems counterintuitive to me too...you'd think consumption would show as negative and production as positive, but it's the opposite.

    Here are some other figures for the month and you see all those negative numbers used again.

    351.jpg
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Just one of its idiosyncrasies I guess....
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,022 admin
    Consuming power from the utility is historically "positive" power usage. Moving energy "backwards" in the utility system, only choice left is "negative"...

    At least that is my reasoning.

    Positive power flow direction can be confusing... Is charging a battery "positive power flow"? But an alternator outputting power is "positive power flow"... Just choose your conventions and stick with them (sometimes on a per device basis).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Alaska ManAlaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    73.1 KWH!!! Holy Moses, that is a lot of production. I get 2Kwh..... I do the happy dance. That is one big array. Nice!!
  • northernernortherner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Alaska Man wrote: »
    73.1 KWH!!! Holy Moses, that is a lot of production. I get 2Kwh..... I do the happy dance. That is one big array. Nice!!

    That is a lot of production for 1 day. Must be a big array?

    I can get over 19 kwh from a 2.8 kw array. This usually only happens in March, a time when all the planets align. Weather then is usually cold and sunny, with additional output from snow refection. Plus it's a time when I can make use of that much power by running a space heater all afternoon!

    Currently on the 9th straight day of clear, sunny weather and forecast is for more of the same.
  • HX_GuyHX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    System is 12.4kW DC (8.99kW south facing, 3.41kW east facing). I'm hoping in our best months here, May and June, it'll top 100kW per day...that would be awesome. :)
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭✭
    Yeah with solar optimizers too, correct. that is great output, better than mine with about the equivalent array.

    The last 2 days here have been about 69 kWh and by the looks of things might make 70+ kWh today.
  • HX_GuyHX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    That's correct Dave, using SolarEdge optimizers.

    These last few days have been outstanding! 74.94kWh today and 73.808kWh yesterday. I had previously estimated that the best the system would do in May/June would probably be 85kWh or so, but now I'm thinking over 90kWh might be possible.
  • HX_GuyHX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Solar kicking butt today! Highest output day so far this year loving it! :)

    Reached a maximum output of 10.68kW right around 12:30...
    1.jpg

    The net usage (what house was consuming + what solar was producing) is always fun to see...
    2.jpg

    The panels are rated at 310W STC (standard test conditions) but are supposed to put out 275W in real world conditions...some are putting out over 290W!
    3.jpg

  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭✭
    Get ready the heating season is a coming, You can check PVwatts and find that May will be your best month if you have a 5 in 12 pitch roof.
  • HX_GuyHX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    My roof has a pretty low pitch actually, 18º (4 in 12). I've tried for a while to find info or a site where I could enter my roof pitch, and it could tell me what day/month would result in the most solar production based on that pitch...haven't had any luck in finding it though. :)
  • BisMBisM Registered Users Posts: 13
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    It's been damn cloudy and rainy ever since we officially kicked the system on...except today was a beautiful beautiful day, not a cloud in the sky which resulted in the highest output so far!

    349.jpg

    And cool little graph from TED...

    350.jpg

    Red = Consumption
    Green = Production
    Black = Net


    Great and thanks for posting the graph :) I always wondered what people with solar panels thought on lovely clear warm days, I guess now I will have this graph to remember!!
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭✭
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    My roof has a pretty low pitch actually, 18º (4 in 12). I've tried for a while to find info or a site where I could enter my roof pitch, and it could tell me what day/month would result in the most solar production based on that pitch...haven't had any luck in finding it though. :)

    PVwatts will allow you to put a tilt angle in. A 4 in 12 is 18.43 degrees. If you click the I symbol it will give the angle or use this site http://www.blocklayer.com/PitchAngle.aspx

    My roof being a 5 in 12 will peak earlier in the spring and later in the fall.

    http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

    The new site has much better weather data.
  • muliamulia Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
    Wew, 73kWh.. o.O

    So much power, I think that could be used for almost a dozen homes with low power consumption.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭✭
    mulia wrote: »
    Wew, 73kWh.. o.O

    So much power, I think that could be used for almost a dozen homes with low power consumption.

    Not in Arizona unless you like to slowly roast in the 115F heat mid summer. We have already had some AC time this year. My car charging, house and shop peak mid summer at 131kWh per day.

    Last July's consumption:
    House : 2592 kWh
    Shop/office : 497 kWh
    Car charging : variable between 300 kWh and 500 kWh depending on usage. July was 375 kWh but August was 477 kWh.

    Solar produced 1879 kWh in July
  • muliamulia Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
    solar_dave wrote: »

    Not in Arizona unless you like to slowly roast in the 115F heat mid summer. We have already had some AC time this year. My car charging, house and shop peak mid summer at 131kWh per day.

    Last July's consumption:
    House : 2592 kWh
    Shop/office : 497 kWh
    Car charging : variable between 300 kWh and 500 kWh depending on usage. July was 375 kWh but August was 477 kWh.

    Solar produced 1879 kWh in July

    Wew.... 115F = 46C. O.o That's really hot surely...

    We're using 220V here, therefore I think that power will be divided by 2 here resulting in lower kWh.

    I can't imagine a residential house using that lots of power.. I can't afford to pay that much, I'm using about 200kWh per month and still think it's so expensive to pay the bill. :-s

    It's actually expensive for our standard income.

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,022 admin
    Actually, in North America, most homes are wired for 120/240 VAC split phase power. The "small stuff" (toasters, vacuums, electric appliances, etc.) are all 120 VAC 60 Hz.

    The big stuff (electric stove, electric water heater, electric drier, Air Conditioners, etc.) are usually 240 VAC.

    In theory, the power usage is the same for 120 or 240 VAC ... Just the current is reduced by 1/2 (and smaller wire diameter needed) vs the 120 VAC wiring:

    Power = Voltage * Current

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • muliamulia Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
    Most North America's Homes wired for 2 voltages... That's a news for me.... :O

    I wonder if different voltage has its own place or they just side by side... Can't imagine if you mistakenly plug those appliances with 120VAC to a 240VAC socket................ smoke+explosion.... :-s

    And it'll be an extra cable provided by utility company for each voltage or perhaps every kWh meter has its own step down/up transformer which let you have 2 voltages at once...
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,022 admin
    The wiring for NA homes is not that confusing... The pole transformer is a "center tapped" design.

    You connect to the "out side two legs", we get 240 VAC (from ~212 to 264 VAC is "legal", around 240 to 255 VAC is "typical" for my home).. And if you connect outside leg to center tap, you get 120 VAC.

    The Neutral/Center Tap is (usually) sent to a ground rod at the base of the pole, and also the same Neutral is grounded (cold water pipe/ground rod at main panel) at the main panel for each connected home (a transformer may support from 1 to 5 or so homes). The standard outlet is a house is 15 or 20 Amp branch circuit @ 120 VAC.

    240 VAC appliances are either "hardwired" or use a very different (and typically much larger) plug and socket for 240 VAC circuits. No chance of mixing voltages and appliances unless somebody makes a cheater cord (cough, cough).

    The typical service can run from 30 amp single phase (120 VAC only--Very old service) to 60/100/125/175/200 amp split phase (120/240 VAC) service. The modern panel (in this area) is probably 100-125 Amp for a natural gas+electric home. Upwards of 200 amps for all electric and/or Air Conditioning (my guesses, I am not an electrician).

    All the home outlets are either two prong (old style--Hot + Neutral). New/current style are three prong (Hot+Neutral+Green Wire Ground).

    The (single) utility meters measure the current flow in both Hot Leads and figure out the kWH readings from that. We are charged correctly for our power usage at 120 or 240 VAC -- Although, probably too much.

    In California, a small home may pay ~$0.13 per kWH and a large home/business may pay $0.30 to $0.45 per kWH (use more power, pay higher rates--For typical home, over ~1,000 kWH per month is the highest rate).

    However--This is a subsidy for homes that don't use much power (distribution/billing/service costs). And for larger homes/businesses, a reason to leave the state and take the jobs with them. Just from yesterday's paper:

    http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/New-California-proposal-Use-less-electricity-6215308.php
    New California proposal: Use less electricity, pay more The state’s big, investor-owned utility companies currently charge different prices for electricity based on four “tiers” of usage as a way to encourage conservation. The proposal issued Tuesday by two administrative law judges at the California Public Utilities Commission would cut that number to two tiers by 2019, with only a 20 percent difference between the prices charged for each. Right now, PG&E’s top residential tier charges twice as much for electricity as the bottom tier
    The changes may seem counter to the state’s long-standing push for energy efficiency. But, according to the commission’s staff, the most efficient California households currently pay less for electricity than the utilities spend supplying it to them. They are, in effect, subsidized by households in the higher tiers.
    “The status quo is a form of subsidy,” said Scott Murtishaw, energy adviser to commission President Michael Picker
    ...
    But Murtishaw said the changes would, in some ways, represent a return to the way electricity was priced before the state’s energy crisis of 2000 and 2001. At the start of the crisis, utilities had two tiers of usage, roughly 15 percent apart. That expanded to five tiers in the aftermath of the crisis. And since legislators had frozen rates for the bottom two tiers during the emergency, rate increases started hitting the upper tiers instead, widening the price gap between those using the most and those using the least.

    This is going to be ugly... But closer to reality (buy a little of anything, pay top retail price. Buy a lot of anything, get it for wholesale).

    I would guess that GT Solar systems will become less economic over time (part of next step is to change from ~$5 a month billing/minimum charge to $10 per month charge--And higher chargers in the future with lower $/kWH pricing).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • JoshKJoshK Solar Expert Posts: 232 ✭✭
    mulia wrote: »
    Most North America's Homes wired for 2 voltages... That's a news for me.... :O
    I wonder if different voltage has its own place or they just side by side... Can't imagine if you mistakenly plug those appliances with 120VAC to a 240VAC socket................ smoke+explosion.... :-s
    And it'll be an extra cable provided by utility company for each voltage or perhaps every kWh meter has its own step down/up transformer which let you have 2 voltages at once...

    The 240 outlets are very different. You won't mix them up...
    Attachment not found.

    Bill's description is very accurate. But I would explain it as your entire electrical service is 240, but you only use half for the 120v outlets. I think that is simpler to understand.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,022 admin
    Well--We "mix" roughly 1/2 of the 120 circuits on Leg A to neutral and the other 1/2 on Leg B to neutral... We don't put all 120 VAC loads on one leg of the 240 VAC service.

    So, on average, we are still using the 240 VAC service current.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • muliamulia Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
    Honestly, that's quite complicated. With that high Amperage flowing
    60/100/125/175/200 amp split phase (120/240 VAC)
    , most homes in US will need very thick wires for sure.

    That socket are really different with the usual socket I saw on the web.

    In here, we simply have 2 wires from kWh meter, one is hot, other is neutral, 220V at 50hz.

    Therefore, the socket is really simple, it's Schuko, just 2 holes used. Upper and lower small parts are grounding, but most houses never used it/utilized it. Means, many people killed/hurt by shock hazard because they use no grounding.

    Attachment not found.

    Well, the price is almost same with power price here, except most peoples in this country earn less than $2500/year which make it expensive to use too much power.

    And, the funny, how can a state with energy crisis charge higher rate for those using less power? with reason cost to supply them is higher. I really don't get it.

    Our country fell into deep energy crisis, therefore power company keep campaigning every day, asking people to lower their power consumption to prevent blackout. They're charging higher power user the higher rate. Hmm..... very opposite with action taken by California power company.

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,022 admin
    Very roughly, about 1/2 the cost of electric power is transmission and distribution costs (towers, poles, wiring, transformers, mainteneance, billing--mostly local distribution costs--My utility gives a cost break down). Another 1/4 of the cost is capital/maintenance for generators, and another 1/4 cost for fuel.

    If there are two homes with 125 amp service (120/240 VAC split phase)... And one uses the national average of ~1,000 kWH (some reported averages by state I have seen down around 700 kWH per month) per month and other uses 170 kWH per month:
    • 1,000 kWH * 0.25 per kWH average + $4 per month fixed costs = $254 per month bill
    • 170 kWH * 0.13 per kWH + $4 per month = $26 per month bill
    I, years ago, had gotten my summer bill down to ~170 kWH per month (very young kids, fewer computers, no extra freezer, etc.)--So, assuming that the cost of wiring to my home is around 50% of ~254--Or around $127 per month.

    My $26 per month bill does not even begin to cover the costs of infrastructure.

    Now--If my main panel was reduced to 1/4 the size (30 amps)--My home would probably be OK and it would match the rating of the house I grew up in (built around ~1955) when people did not use as much power (and my father would blow the occasional fuel with his table saw or arc welder). But the modern code and expectations is something like a 125 amp service--Which the utility is expected to supply/support at any time.

    GT solar does not really reduce the need for infrastructure costs as I can still use the required energy at any time (night, bad weather, etc.). And, for me, my GT system outputs ~2-3 kWatts while my own load is usually 1 kWatt or less.

    So, you can see a few utilities (here and in Canada) are already changed the minimum billing to $48 or even as high as $96 in one case (or at least trying, don't remember).

    And why commercial customers have charges based on the peak power flow (15 minutes in last 1 month or last 12 months) which represents about 1/2 of their typical electric bill (they also have a poor Power Factor rating/cost for large customers like oil refineries).

    And the reservation/demand charges also apply to GT solar too... If you have a relatively constant load 24 hours per day and can only generate power ~6 hours per day--The solar output can exceed your normal AC loads, and increase demand charges.

    It can be argued (and has been) that demand charges are unfair for solar power--As the power is used "locally" (by the house/business next door)--But that argument has not always won (if it every has won).

    Not trying to say that Utilities are out to beat the little guy down--But from an engineering / business point of view, I can understand their argument that small customers cost more to serve and have to share their portion of the costs.

    Just like buying any goods at wholesale vs retail--The cost of business/efficiency favors the larger/higher volume customers.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • muliamulia Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
    Most of transmission/infrastructure like poles/wiring/transformers last very long, at least that's what happened in my country. I have never seen poles/wiring in my neighborhood ever maintained in at least a decade. Power company's man will only come and take a look (and repair) those only if there are some catastrophes like pole hit by truck, trees branch grow very near wiring, transformer blowing. I think all of them should be taken as maintenance cost and they're very rarely happened (last transformer blow here 6 years ago), except those tree branch case.

    The same pole/wire/transformer is used to serve more than dozens houses and that's (IMO) unacceptable to put whole cost to one house or worse burdening it all to users each month. They should be treated as investment since they're used as station to sell power they produced.

    Well, I think this only happened in my country and that's because power company here (only 1 power company exist in this country and it's owned by government) is unable to produce enough energy to meet demands by middle and high class society which growing in number and demand more power to be supplied to fulfilled new AC, new water heater, new freezer.

    We're deficit in energy and many regions still suffer from blackout, some part of this country even worse, they only 'enjoy' electricity for 5-6hours/day. I changed each broken in my house to LED to lower energy bill and to meet with power produced by my solar panel system. I don't know if there is event called "earth hour" over there. That event should be banned permanently. LOL

    The temporary conclusion I could draw is in US and Canada, people should not energy saving or use any energy saver appliances in order for their billing to keep meet up with transmission/distribution+maintenance cost of their utility company. :D

    Unless.... they're fully off-grid.... :D
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