help needed please

shawn250
shawn250 Registered Users Posts: 4
I want to set up a soalr system for my pond. I have a 40watt solar panel, and a 20A 12v/24v/ charge controller. I want to use a ac pump, so can anyone recommend a good invertor, I also need help picking a battery...
Any advice on the type of battery...I did the calculations and a 18ah battery would be sufficient...to run the ac pump I want to buy
would these battery work

http://www.amazon.com/ML18-12-CB19-...9?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1428353277&sr=1-6

or
http://www.amazon.com/ExpertPower®-...VT58/ref=cm_cd_al_qh_dp_t/184-7327982-9839937

if these are not appropriate, any help of a suitable one



Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Hi Shawn250, welcome to the forum.
    FIRST we need to know exactly what pump you will be using and what it's power requirements are. Only THEN can we offer any suggestions.
  • shawn250
    shawn250 Registered Users Posts: 4
    Hi Shawn250, welcome to the forum.
    FIRST we need to know exactly what pump you will be using and what it's power requirements are. Only THEN can we offer any suggestions.


    Hey wayne,
    It seems I did the calculation for a dc not an ac pump, so I still need to pick a pump. Its a 250 gallon pond, so I need recommendations on a pump as well.
    Thank you

    this is the solar panel
    http://www.amazon.com/ALEKO%C2%AE-40W-40-Watt-Monocrystalline-Solar/dp/B007YT7P94/ref=sr_1_1/187-2786971-7623066?ie=UTF8&qid=1428375051&sr=8-1&keywords=40+watt+solar+panel

    This is the solar charge controller
    http://www.amazon.com/Docooler-Controller-Battery-Regulator-Protection/dp/B00L37KZI6/ref=sr_1_8/187-2786971-7623066?ie=UTF8&qid=1428375109&sr=8-8&keywords=solar+battery+controller

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Selecting a pump is probably more complicated than designing a solar power system...

    Are you looking for an air compressor, or water pump (circulation, pumping up hill for a fountain/falling water, drawing air in for aeration) and how many CFM or gallons per minute, etc.

    "Low end" DC pumps tend to have brushed motors. The brushes may last roughly 6-12 months running during daylight (brush replacement, turning the commutator occasionally, etc.).

    Higher end DC pumps will have electronics that convert DC to AC (a type of inverter, or VFD--Variable frequency drive). This pumps tend to be much more reliable, but also much more expensive.

    And then you supply the AC inverter (plus solar panels + battery bank + etc.). Can be a very nice system, but not cheap.

    If you only need to pump air/water during daylight (more in summer, less in winter), if you can design a system that does not use a battery bank, you should be much happier. Battery banks + charge controllers (+ AC inverters) make for a much more complex system.

    A 40 Watt solar panel + 18 AH battery bank (at 12 volts) is an awfully small system. It will be difficult to find a small AC inverter that would power such a system for more than a few hours per day (or less).

    A typical small AC inverter may draw 6 watts just being "turned on"--Add the rest of the system losses, and it can eat much of the power in a small off grid solar power system (if you are expecting 12-24 hours per day of pumping).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • shawn250
    shawn250 Registered Users Posts: 4
    BB. wrote: »
    Selecting a pump is probably more complicated than designing a solar power system...

    Are you looking for an air compressor, or water pump (circulation, pumping up hill for a fountain/falling water, drawing air in for aeration) and how many CFM or gallons per minute, etc.

    "Low end" DC pumps tend to have brushed motors. The brushes may last roughly 6-12 months running during daylight (brush replacement, turning the commutator occasionally, etc.).

    Higher end DC pumps will have electronics that convert DC to AC (a type of inverter, or VFD--Variable frequency drive). This pumps tend to be much more reliable, but also much more expensive.

    And then you supply the AC inverter (plus solar panels + battery bank + etc.). Can be a very nice system, but not cheap.

    If you only need to pump air/water during daylight (more in summer, less in winter), if you can design a system that does not use a battery bank, you should be much happier. Battery banks + charge controllers (+ AC inverters) make for a much more complex system.

    A 40 Watt solar panel + 18 AH battery bank (at 12 volts) is an awfully small system. It will be difficult to find a small AC inverter that would power such a system for more than a few hours per day (or less).

    A typical small AC inverter may draw 6 watts just being "turned on"--Add the rest of the system losses, and it can eat much of the power in a small off grid solar power system (if you are expecting 12-24 hours per day of pumping).

    -Bill


    Hey Bill, Thanks for your response......I am just looking o run the pump during the day...so I would prefer not to use a battery but I am finding it difficult to find a suitable pump that can work with this system without the battery as I am unsure what to look for....I would prefer to run both a air pump and a fountain pump ....my pond it approximately 250 gallon...not very big...

    Could you suggest a suitable air and fountain pump for me ...

    here are the details to my solar panel
    ALEKO® 40 Watt Monocrystalline Solar Panel - Nominal Output Voltage 12V Operating Voltage (Vmp): 17.5V Operating Current (Imp): 2.29A Open Circuit Voltage (Voc): 22.0V Solar Cell: 36Pcs; 3FT wire included!
    linkj to solar panel:
    http://www.amazon.com/ALEKO®-40W-40-Watt-Monocrystalline-Solar/dp/B007YT7P94/ref=sr_1_2/192-4310141-5246533?ie=UTF8&qid=1428395803&sr=8-2&keywords=40watt+solar+panel

    Thank you for your help
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    How much are you willing to pay for pumps? $250 or more just for one water pump?

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/forum/solar-electric-power-wind-power-balance-of-system/solar-water-pumping/5116-laing-d5-ecocirc-pump

    And there are other very nice pumps used in wells/surface water pumping, but those can cost $1,000's just for the pump.

    Can you get AC Utility power to the pond? If this is a koi pond, or similar, you probably would be better off with a 24x7 pumping system. Cheaper and/or more reliable.

    Most of the "solar pond pumps" appear to be inexpensive and probably not that reliable.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • shawn250
    shawn250 Registered Users Posts: 4
    I am just going to get a 12-24v dc pump , since the pond already has an ac pump...I just wanted to add a solar feature and I learnt yo can connect the 12-24v pump directly to the solar panel
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    I don't have any useful experience here... But this links may give you some ideas for brushless pumps (brushed pumps may have ~600-1,000 hour of brush life):

    http://www.marchpump.com/pumps/
    http://solarhomestead.com/ivan-labs-el-sid-pumps/

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Jake48
    Jake48 Registered Users Posts: 11
    hey bill i have a question, how many watts in hour would 1200 amp produce? at 48v.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Jake,

    I probably need a little more information in your question... Is the question based on:
    • 48 volt @ 1,200 Amp*Hour battery bank (that is a pretty big battery bank)
    That would be 2x these 24 volt @ 1,200 AH fork lift batteries:

    Crown Industrial Battery - 24 Volts, 1200 Amp-hours (~$6,203 each)
    • 24 Volts
    • 1200 Amp-hours at the 20 hour rate
    • Dimensions: 35.13"L x 15.44"W x 31"H
    • Weight: 1956 pounds
    Warranty: 1500 cycles to 80% DOD for five years full replacement.

    Or are you asking something completely different?

    By the way:

    Watts and Amps are a rate (like gallons per hour)
    Watt*Hours and Amp*Hours are an amount (like gallons of water pumped)

    So Watts (like 100 Watt light bulb) is a rate...

    Watts * Time is the amount (100 watts * 8 hours = 800 Watt*Hours).

    For amps:

    100 Watts / 12 volts = 8.33 Amp
    8.33 amps * 8 hours = 66.7 Amp*Hours (at 12 volts)

    Watts is a "complete unit" for power--100 Watts at 120 VAC or 12 VAC does not matter.

    Amps and Amp*Hours, we need to know the voltage that the current is being measured:

    100 Watts /12 volts = 8.33 Amps
    100 Watts / 120 volts = 0.833 Amps

    Mixing up Watts and Amps across different voltages (i.e., 12 vdc vs 120 vac) get real confusing really fast. I try to do all the paper calcuations in Watts and Watt*Hours... Only convert to amps when designing the wiring (how much current will be carried by wiring) and battery bank AH @ XX volts (batteries are typically rated in Amp*Hours, but Watt*Hours is perfectly OK--Just not common usage).

    We do not use Watt/Hour (Watts per hour) or Amps/Hour (Amps per hour) -- Those units are not really used/needed here.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Jake48
    Jake48 Registered Users Posts: 11
    ahhh thank you so much. (commenting on battery's)
    well i can buy that, but the weight is so high :( looks so nice!!!. im buying these battery's ===> http://m.alibaba.com/product/1951886...00ah-made.html.
    to power my big inverter.

    edit: sorry about the question,
    yes the battery would be at 48v 200 ah in parallel x6
    @1200 amps. my question is what would that produce from say 2000 watts @190 ah(?).
    (thats my measurement @ 1 battery each)
    or a random guess.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Hmmm... Looks like you will have a very nice battery bank there.

    http://www.optimumnanoenergy.com

    Looking at the website, I did not find much information, but the individual cells are either rated for <3C or <10-20C -- And, of course, it depends on the wiring of the battery bank too for maximum current.

    If we assume that the battery bank can output 3C at 48 volt volts:
    • 200 AH * 3/H * 48 volts = 28,800 Watts @ 48 VDC peak (and discharge the battery in 20 minutes or 1/3rd of an hour)
    • 200 AH * 3/H = 600 Amps maximum
    In reality, there are probably limits to how much current each battery bank can output--Perhaps a few hundred amps, but I cannot tell.

    Having the right size wire and a fuse/breaker to protect the wiring in the case of a short circuit will help reduce the chances of a fire.

    A 6 kWatt AC inverter would draw:
    • 6,000 Watts * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1/48 volts = 147 Amps
    • 147 amps * 1.25 NEC derating = 184 Amps ~ 200 amp branch circuit wiring/breaker rating
    Do you know if that battery bank has some sort of battery management system?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    BB, link broken
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Works for me... Was a bit slow, and may be unreliable for some reason (did not work last night for me when I first tried it).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Jake48
    Jake48 Registered Users Posts: 11
    yes it has a bms sorry about the alibaba link.
    cheap but not reliable. im not buying from there.
    getting from the website instead. and it has a surge protecter. also there battery's don't catch fire. claims there youtube channel lol.

    so to be clear is that at 600 amps? (ah)
    or at 1200 amps (ah)?
    also im getting a 2000 amp ~ 25000 amp (max) @ 48v charge controller/windturbine.

    and getting 48v at 2000 watts solar panel (11.000.00$) vs (250$) 12v 185 watts is not a great idea for me. because of the length. or personally.
    right now don't want to bother with it.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    I think it was my link that is having some issues:

    http://www.optimumnanoenergy.com

    Anyway, what are your loads?

    Wind tends to be less predictable/reliable (does not always blow from 9am to 3pm except in winter/stormy weather.

    Lithium batteries are very neat in that they can take/provide a heck of lot of current, have very low self discharge, and can be "stored" at any state of charge level without damage from aging.

    However--They cannot be over charged... So whatever wind system you put in has to have a good dump load/way to mechanically shutdown/control the wind turbine operation. Lead acid batteries, you can "over charge them" to a degree without damage. Lithium, in general, you cannot.

    The Amp*Hour (Watt*Hour) storage capacity is usually based around your load and charging characteristics.

    I.e., you want two days of "no sun" storage, or 1 day, or 3 days, etc... With Lead Acid batteries, generally, we don't want to discharge them very often below ~50% state of charge (for longer cycle life). With LiFePO4 batteries, you can take them down to 20% without problem.

    The other important sizing rule of thumb for lead acid is surge current (starting well pump, short/heavy loads from shop tools, etc.). Lead Acid have pretty good surge capabilities, but sometimes we have to "up-size" a battery bank to handle short term loads/starting surges. With LiFePO4 batteries, that is usually not an issue.

    Picking 1,200 AH or 600 AH @ 48 volts without a better understanding of your loads, I really cannot give you much useful guidance unless you have other limitations (limited space for batteries, cannot spend too much money, etc.).

    With Lead Acid battery banks, we tend to suggest to error on the side of larger solar arrays--Lead Acid batteries you want to get them back near fully charged pretty quickly (to limit sulfation issues). LiFePO4--You really do not have that problem.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Jake48
    Jake48 Registered Users Posts: 11
    yes i have chosen like arbiter from halo.

    arbiter asks: what do's a wall say to the other wall?

    john doe asks: what??? with no question in thoughts.

    arbiter reply's : i'll meet you at the corner. (well listening to cortania).

    sorry got caught up in a moment.

    yes well i just have a inverter thats all. i dont have battery's yet. you helped me soo much thank you.

    my loads in theory would be 12 kwh for 3-4 hours.
    36 kwh for 3 hour run time or 4 hour at 48 kwh at power out. (i think but i'll do okay).

    i relly like the back up power as you can see how many comments i have made. so again thank you soo much. but i am going to click on those battery make a hell out of contact info. and enjoy my high but very carfully charge those batterys :).


    have a great night/day.