Need small 12 volt power system

Options
DJdave
DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
Hi Chris,
I hope some of you can help this Newbee. I Bought a Honda EU2000i to build my hunting camp back in the woods. This was in Sept of 2014 it was so hot I made sure it was in the shade. My plan is to use the generator with the 12volt output for a battery bank, But it does not have a limit switch. 1... Should I use a stand alone trickle charger instead? 2... I want to use the 12volt for some 12volt LEDs and a radio to keep the vandals away. 3..When I come off the Batterys into the cabin do I need some kind of regulator or just go threw a 12volt fuser? 4..Down the road should I had a panel to the shaded roof to keep the batterys charged when I am not there a week or two at a time? The building is dried in and I am ready to start running wirers in the wall.
Thanks DJdave

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    DJ Dave,

    Chris has not been around for quite a while... So I will take a shot at your question. Plus I am moving this to it own thread so we can focus on your questions (after I post this).

    First, the 12 volt battery charger on the little Honda gensets is not really good for anything other than as a last ditch emergency battery charger. You have to run the genset with ECO Off (full speed) and you get something like 100 Watts from that 12 volt port (some versions have spoken that you should not use the 120 VAC output when using the 12 volt output--But I have not seen that warning in my old eu2000i).

    So--If you need to charge a 12 volt battery bank from that genset, your best choice is to get a standard 12 volt Deep Cycle battery charger (which is usually different than a standard 12 volt car battery charger).

    But--I always like to start at the beginning. How much 12 volt power do you need (Amps * Hour of use per day, 12 VDC vs 120 VAC).

    If you don't have any idea what your loads are, to measure smaller loads, a DC AH/WH type meter is nice. For larger systems and for debugging of DC power systems, a DC Current Clamp DMM (Digital Multi Meter) is a really nice little tool (this one from Sears is "good enough" for our needs at ~60). If you will be needing some AC power too, then a Kill-a-Watt type meter is very handy (and good for energy conservation study of the appliances around your home).

    Figure out your power needs first. Then size the battery bank for those needs. Next size the solar array to charge the battery bank/run your loads. Lastly, then a Battery Charger+Genset for when you have bad weather/emergency backup needs.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options
    OK BB,
    Thanks so much for getting back to me so fast. You da Man...LOL! I will be like Dorothy and start at the beginning and keep following this yellow brick road. I still don't know the best way to find my tread once I log in?
    I will drive to the store and get that meter tomorrow. I want to get started right away. I am so glad I found your site. I see a lot of people on here that wish they would have started here in the first place.
    Thanks DJdave Macon GA.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    DJDave,

    Those are just suggestions/starting points... To a degree, the meters you may wish to purchase will depend on the Voltage/Current/Loads you will be measuring. Make sure you understand their limitations (for example, the Doc Watson DC AH/WH meter and family of meters are rated for something like 100 amps peak... In reality, I would not really (from what little I know) recommend running much more than 15-20 amps maximum continuous current.

    The above were suggestion as to the type of meters available. Just want to make sure you don't purchase something that won't work for your application.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    Forgot--To find replies to your posts, you can click on "New Posts" to see all posts since you have last been here or "Today's Posts" to see today's posts (posts in the last 24 hours).

    If you want to find just your posts, you can click on your name (upper right corner) and then My Posts...

    You can book mark these in your browser for quick access.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options
    Hi BB,
    I got the amp meter from Sears today. I must admit I don't have most of the Items I will putting in my camp and running on 12 volt. So tell me what you recommend my next step is .Thanks DJdave
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    First play with DC Current Clamp meter with your car battery... Turn lights on/off, start car, run alternator and see how it works.

    The "zero" button works very differently from other meters I have used. DC current clamp meters have zero "drift" (nature of the transistor used to sense the magnetic field). You will have to zero the meter every so often for the most accurate readings (at low current).

    For this Sears Meter, make sure the ZERO in the LED is off (missing). You can zero with "zero current" or zero "with some current flow" -- Your choice. With the clamp having no wire in it, push the Zero Button so that "ZERO" is displayed (the micro controller simply adds/subtracts an offset voltage from the reading).

    Now clamp one wire and you will see its DC current flow. Note, if you clip on the + and - leads, the net current flow is ZERO Amps (5 amps to the right is canceled by 5 amps to the left).

    If you pay attention to the display, you will see a "-" sign occasionally, with DC current, the meter and tell you which direction the current is flowing (clip to battery you will see -10 amps when the headlamps are on, and perhaps +10 to +50 amps when the alternator turns on).

    Next--When you start estimating your power needs... Note that some things draw constant current (light a light bulb). But an RV furnace or Refrigerator will only run XX minutes out of the hour--So you have to both measure the "on time" and "off time" to estimate the average current flow (or get a kill-a-Watt meter or Doc Watson type DC AH/WH meter to do the measurements over time).

    A DC Current Clamp meter is almost "magic" for how easy they are to use (no more cutting a wire and attaching a DMM / Amp meter to measure current flow). And much safer too (cannot blow up the meter in normal operation).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    Also, I should add a that Amps is 1/2 the information needed to calculate Power and Energy...

    10 amps at 12 volts DC is:

    10 amps * 12 VDC = 120 Watts

    But 10 amps at 120 Volts is:

    10 amps * 120 Volts = 1,200 Watts

    Even battery voltage matters:

    10 amps * 10.5 volts = 105 Watt (dead battery voltage)
    10 amps * 14.5 volts = 145 Watt (charging a battery)

    and AC current / voltage measurements for power (Watts) and energy (Watt*Hours) can get pretty confusing very quickly (if you want to understand this issue more).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options
    Hello BB,
    The fridg I want to get will be my biggest draw It says: 12/24...5.4/2.2 Amp Watts ...120 vac is 0.8 Amp Watts.
    More to come.
    Thanks DJdave
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    DJdave wrote: »
    .120 vac is 0.8 Amp Watts.

    DJDave,

    Just to clarify the units/math:

    120 Volts * 0.8 amps = 96 Watts

    Remembering Algebra from High School Math, just move the variables around to meet your needs:

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-formulas-d_455.html
    [h=1]Electrical Formulas[/h] [h=2]The most common used electrical formulas - Ohms Law and combinations[/h]
    Common electrical units used in formulas and equations are:
    • Volt - unit of electrical potential or motive force - potential is required to send one ampere of current through one ohm of resistance
    • Ohm - unit of resistance - one ohm is the resistance offered to the passage of one ampere when impelled by one volt
    • Ampere - units of current - one ampere is the current which one volt can send through a resistance of one ohm
    • Watt - unit of electrical energy or power - one watt is the product of one ampere and one volt - one ampere of current flowing under the force of one volt gives one watt of energy
    • Volt Ampere - product of volts and amperes as shown by a voltmeter and ammeter - in direct current systems the volt ampere is the same as watts or the energy delivered - in alternating current systems - the volts and amperes may or may not be 100% synchronous - when synchronous the volt amperes equals the watts on a wattmeter - when not synchronous volt amperes exceed watts - reactive power
    • Kilovolt Ampere - one kilovolt ampere - KVA - is equal to 1,000 volt amperes
    • Power Factor - ratio of watts to volt amperes
    [h=3]Electric Power Formulas[/h]
    P = V I (1a)
    P = R I2 (1b)
    P = V2/ R (1c)
    where
    P = power (watts, W)
    V = voltage (volts, V)
    I = current (amperes, A)
    R = resistance (ohms, Ω)
    [h=3]Electric Current Formulas[/h]
    I = V / R (2a)
    I = P / V (2b)
    I = (P / R)1/2 (2c)
    [h=3]Electric Resistance Formulas[/h]
    R = V / I (3a)
    R = V2/ P (3b)
    R = P / I2 (3c)
    [h=3]Electrical Potential Formulas - Ohms Law[/h] Ohms law can be expressed as:
    V = R I (4a)
    V = P / I (4b)
    V = (P R)1/2 (4c)
    [h=3]Example - Ohm's law[/h] A 12 volt battery supplies power to a resistance of 18 ohms.
    I = (12 V) / (18 Ω)
    = 0.67 (A)


    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options
    Hi BB,
    Ok,I think I have everything now.
    1. TV/DVD player say 45 watts but has a 12 volt power supply the says output 400mA.
    2. Car Radio Max output consumption 4.5A
    3 6 LED lights http://www.amazon.com/LED-Dome-Lamp-Downlight-Aircraft/dp/B0056B92BG
    4 12 volt alarm.
    5 The fridg I want to get will be my biggest draw It says: 12/24...5.4/2.2 Amp Watts ...120 vac is 0.8 Amp Watts. If it is going to be to much my small system
    I may have to just go with Ice and a cooler.....LOL!
    Thanks DJdave
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    Marked ratings on appliances do not always give "useful" information. You usually need to measure the current/power/etc.

    400 mA = 0.4 amps
    0.4 amps * 12 volts = 4.8 Watts
    45 Watts / 12 volts = 3.75 amps
    45 Watts / 120 VAC = 0.375 Amps (at 120 VAC) = 375 mAmps

    So, the 400 mAmp is probably the 120 VAC input current requirement for the power brick.

    It will take a few times going through this to get comfortable with how the math/numbers work.

    The Kill-a-Watt will help you here to experiment, measure, log, and understand "the numbers".

    Unfortunately, Solar Power really requires us to understand "the numbers". The math is pretty basic--So don't let this scare you off.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options
    Hey BB,
    I am a jack of all trades but this math is scarey !
  • Alaska Man
    Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    Options
    My 2 cents....... forget about the 12v equipment and buy a small inverter. In the long run you will be mucho denaro ahead. I was going to go all 12v then I saw that a 12v L.E.D light was $30 and a 120v L.E.D. light was $8.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    Don't let my math trying to figure out what the 400mA was (120 VAC input current--Was not the 12 volt output current).

    Most of it is pretty straight forward. We start with some numbers and then walk through the equations to figure out what we need.

    I agree with Alaska Man--Unless you have equipment that needs 12 VDC (for HAM Radios, they really want 13.8 volts for full power transmitter operation)--Many times simply getting efficient 120 VAC appliances (usually energy star rated) + an AC inverter (with its 85% efficiency) is usually a better deal. The 120 VAC equipment can be cheaper, and the 120 VAC power is easier to send longer distances and a bit more "rugged" input than 12 VDC circuits (lightning, short circuits, electrical isolation/ground isolation, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options
    Alaska Man and B B,
    Very Interesting, This sounds like a game changer for me. Right now I only have the New 12 volt Car Radio and the TV. The tv will run on either or ! No inside walls and no wires. I really need a way to have some juice or alarm when I am not there to keep away wondering kids from burning the place down. Please let me here from all of you before I take the next step.
    Thanks DJdave
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    You can Google around for various alarm options... This one (don't know anything about product or website) runs 12dc/24dc/120 VAC

    http://www.ingramproducts.com/Alarm_Audible-12_24VDC_Alarm_Sounder.html

    We have a few people here with Internet connected alarms--And some remote monitoring.

    Figure out what you need (i.e., just noise, or cell phone, internet, etc. connected alarm).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options




    I have great cell phone signal out there ! Glad you thought of that. I'll start googling!
  • mryimmers
    mryimmers Solar Expert Posts: 117 ✭✭✭
    Options
    Hi DJdave,
    I built a small cabin out in the bush a few years ago, I just wired it all for 120v because, as has been said, the 120v stuff is so much cheaper compared to 12v. For the first maybe 2 years I ran everything on the generator, I got that Kill-A-Watt meter and ran everything that I planned to run on solar through it for many months, and that gave me a pretty good idea how much power I needed. I have a microwave, electric kettle and toaster that I run on generator only, the rest on solar. Between the wood stove and propane camp stove I rarely need to use generator. Mainly run TV, sat dish, stereo, lights and some other small items on solar.
    You came to the right place to get up to speed on this subject, have fun!!!
    FWIW, It is well worth taking your time and educating yourself before starting to dump $$$ into a system. Just my .02. HH
    510 watt pv, TS-MPPT 60, Exeltech XP1100, XP600 & XP250 @ 24V, 4x Trojan 105RE, Trimetric 2030, Yamaha EF2400i gen.
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options
    mryimmers,
    Thanks so much for your 2 cents worth. All this adds up to what I hope is a great little solar project. I start running wire for the Generator soon. Any Thoughts ? Anyone ?
    DJdave
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    My suggestion... Run all of your loads at home--If DC, get a couple of golf cart batteries plus something like this DC AH/WH meter (there are a lot of different brands/models out there--Many look like clones of each other, but can have-what appears to be-different software/display options). Run the DC rig from a battery charger (if nothing else) so you can get good daily load numbers. Or a Kill-a-Watt meter if AC loads.

    Yea--I repeat myself--But you really need to know your loads to build a cost effective and useful off grid system.

    Next--Many people buy a 4 foot square sheet of ~1" thick subfloor plywood and build out there entire solar power system (wiring, charge controller, breakers, battery monitor, AC Inverter, etc.) in the garage and attach it to a couple of solar panels in the yard--And test it for a few days to make sure all is right. You might need/want to cut down the plywood sheet so it is small enough to fit the space/vehicle and easy for 1-2 people to hang on the wall.

    Label & disconnect the wiring, put it in the back of the vehicle, drive to camp/cabin and install--Reconnect wires. Can save a lot of frustration if the nearest Hardware Store is several hour drive away.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options
    Hey guy,
    I got a self 12 volt leason today. My big truck has 2 batterys in it. after setting for just 3 days the battery is week and it won't hardly roll over. I jump it of this morning. Let it run for about 15 min. I then shut it down. Unhooked the batterys, took a reading of 11.9 on one and 11.89 on the other. I am guessing I should wait till morning and check them both to see which one is not holding voltage. Any thoughts???
    DJdave
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Options
    At those voltages they are sill QUITE UNDERCHARGED and weak... you should see ~13.2 after a rest for a charged automotive battery
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
    Options
    Either a shorted cell or lights/something left on in the truck. Even a dome/cabin lights left on for a few days can kill the battery bank.

    Double check that the alternator is charging... Another handy use for the DC Current Clamp DMM.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DJdave
    DJdave Registered Users Posts: 11
    Options
    My new meter saved me $220 dollars. I knew for a fact that my batterys were bad after checking them with the meter. The date on them was 6/12 and 8/12. Free replacement if less then 3 years old. When I got there I was told that there meter read out said, One was bad and the other was good. They had to see if it would take a charge before they would replace it. They tried for 2 hours to get a full charge. I Said! Da ! Do you still think its good.
    Thanks Again Guys I am getting the hang of reading that meter.