Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

ruidias
ruidias Registered Users Posts: 5
Hello, I am building my first offgrid project... But now I really do need help.
I have 2 separated battery banks, both 120v SLA AGM bats that I need to recharge.
Pretend to buy 3 PV pannels – 300wp each.
First question is:
- what charge controller could charge these 2 bbanks (simultaneously or at different times) ?

Many thanks in advance !!

Rui

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,590 admin
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    Welcome to the forum Rui!

    First question is what are the voltage/current ratings for the panels (Voltage maximum power Vmp, and Current maximum power Imp)?

    Is there some reason you cannot put the two batteries in parallel and charge both at the same time?

    One problem is that 300 Watt panels are rarely Vmp~18 volt panels, but usually Vmp~30-36 volts or so.

    To recharge a 12 volt battery bank efficiently, you need a MPPT type (maximum power point tracking) solar charge controller that can take high voltage/low current from the array and efficiently "down convert" to the low voltage/high current needed to efficiently recharge the battery bank.

    And two MPPT charge controllers do not share a single array very well.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ruidias
    ruidias Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    Hi Bill,
    First, I still don't have the PV pannels. I will need your help to choose.
    My battery banks are 120v -> 10 batteries, 12v string, each one with 9AH.
    I need to charge them separately because my DC-AC Inverter works this way.
    I read somewhere Midnite 250KS uses to work with 120v bbanks. I also saw Sunsaver Duo, wich charge two battery banks separately. Please advice me.

    Rui
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,590 admin
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    It sounds like a UPS (uninterrruptable power supply).

    There are really no (common, that I know of) solar chargers these days that will charge a 120 VDC battery bank (needs to go >150 VDC).

    The SunSaver will only work with 12 volt batteries (intended for an RV with 12 volt vehicle and "house" battery bank or similar).

    There are thinks you can do--Such as put 10x 12 volt charge controllers with 10 separate solar panels (one on each 12 volt battery), or 6x 24 volt controllers, etc...

    Is there anyway you can use a standard solar DC to AC inverter with 12/24/48 volt battery input? It would be a lot easier--And you can use a single or a couple of larger AH batteries to give you the equivalent (or larger) battery bank (i.e., a pair of 6 volt ~200 AH golf cart batteries for 12 volts or 4x 6 volt batteries for a 24 volt battery bank, etc.).

    You can operated a pair of inverters from a single battery bank, etc.

    A 9 amp @ 120 VDC battery bank is just not very common outside of the UPS industry.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ruidias
    ruidias Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    Yes Bill, you are totally right.

    being a programmer, there are many reasons why I prefer an UPS. Indeed it is possible to change all the internal voltages and discharge other battery banks, but I would prefer as it is: 120V
    Well, as I understand the complexity of the task, there is an alternative. To build a small 600/800W solar system to supply the UPS using its own input 230V. So, where should I start ?

    Rui
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,590 admin
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    There are lots of solar power inverters and inverter/chargers that behave pretty much just like a UPS.

    You can range from small:

    http://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/suresine/ (230 VAC 50 Hz version too)

    Just setup the DC battery side (battery bank+AC Charger+solar charger+genset backup--as needed) and run the AC inverter purely from battery bank (no surges, possible glitching of a computer as it switches from AC Mains to Inverter Backup).

    And there are many larger units (upwards of 6,000 watts or more) that can be configured many different ways (AC mains, DC backup, pure off grid, sell excess solar power back to the utility, auto start genset, etc.).

    Personally, I like to keep things simpler. A small battery driving a dedicated inverter (like the MorningStar), and setup AC/Solar/Etc. charging on the DC side.

    And/or use a laptop (internal 3-6 hour or so battery backup).

    My suggestion--Start with defining the loads (use a Kill-a-Watt type meter), estimate your daily loads, then work backwards to define the battery bank, solar panels... Then pick the hardware that will meet your needs.

    Another way would be to connect the solar/off grid power system to the input of your UPS--But that is a waste of money and electricity.

    Are your desires to save money (solar power to reduce your power bill), or to extend computer run-time during power outages--Or to get yourself off of the grid (going green, computer power with no or very unreliable AC Utility power), etc.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ruidias
    ruidias Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    Great Bill,

    I intend to go 100% Off-Grid. The "waste of money" you talk about is not considered in this particular case.

    The SureSine 300 watt looks very good, Is there a 600 watt version ? , that would be really fine. I just need 3000Wh Max of charge per day. So, a charge of 600 watts * 5 hours would work perfectly. What PV would you recommend ?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,590 admin
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    The MorningStar is presently only offered in the 300 Watt/12 volt version. Everyone here is waiting for a larger version. Has been a very reliable/rugged device for many folks here. Not many small inverters with its features (remote on/off, low power standby, etc.).

    Starting with the battery bank... a 3kWH system should be 24 VDC minimum (48 VDC would be OK too). 2 days of storage (bad weather), and 50% maximum discharge (better battery life):

    3,000 WH * 1/0.85 AC inverter eff * 2 days of storage * 1/0.50 max discharge * 1/24 volt battery bank = 588 AH @ 24 volt battery bank

    That is not a small system by any means.

    Since you are in Europe (Portugal, I guess), you should have some good choices more local to you--Look at Victron--I have heard some nice things about them.

    Planning wise... There are a lot of losses in off grid power systems. Typically end to end efficiency (solar panels, charge controller, battery, ac inverter output) runs around 52% overall.

    There are two ways to calcuate the size of the solar array--One is based on the minimum charge of 5% to 13% for the battery bank (battery heath, ease of operation) and the second is based on hours of sun per day and your loads.

    First, based on size of battery bank:

    588 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.05 rate of charge = 1,003 Watt array minimum
    588 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 2,006 Watt array nominal
    588 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.13 rate of charge = 2,608 Watt array cost effective maximum

    For a weekend cabin, you can probably get away with a 5% rate of charge. For a full time home/off grid operation, you should look at 10% to 13%+ rate of charge. Especially if you are going to be running the loads in the day time (running the computers+lights+etc. draws current that would otherwise be able to charge the battery bank).

    Then there is sizing based on hours of "noon time equivalent sun per day":

    Using PV Watts for Evora, fixed array tilted from 38 degrees horizontal:




    Month

    Solar Radiation
    (kWh/m2/day)


    1
    3.65


    2
    3.97


    3
    6.08



    4
    5.49


    5
    6.45


    6
    6.37


    7
    6.90


    8
    6.92


    9
    5.86


    10
    4.71


    11
    3.30


    12
    2.99


    Year
    5.23



    5 hours a day of sun will not cover the winter months... You would either need a larger array, use less power, genset backup, or similar if that amount of power is needed. The above is based on average weather conditions over ~20 years--You should not plan on using 100% of predicted power, but closer to 65 to 75% of predicted power, plus some sort of backup measure... Lets use 3.97 hours of sun, February as you "break even" month, and you need a minimum of 3,000 WH per day.

    3,000 WH * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1/0.75 weather factor (SWAG) * 1/0.52 system eff * 1/3.97 hours of sun per day = 2,280 Watt array

    I have included a 75% derating assuming you need 3,000 WH per day (fixed computer usage)--If you have other loads you can reduce during bad weather, you can change the derating factor to 1.0 or whatever you think is best.

    I picked an inland city--If you are near the coast, we will have to find better information--Many coastal areas have a marine layer which can kill solar production.

    So--Before picking the hardware, what do you think so far? 3,000 WH per day is enough to run a small/efficient off grid home.

    Computers (and electronics in general) can be very power hungry. Changing to a laptop/lower power server can reduce power usage from 250 Watts to 20-30 Watts (or even less) pretty easy.

    In general, it is less expensive to conserve that it is to build out a larger off grid power system.

    Anyway--A start...

    Good luck,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Thom
    Thom Solar Expert Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    I was told a larger inverter is coming soon from Morningstar

    Thom
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added 2@ 100w panel with a midnight brat 
  • ruidias
    ruidias Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    Sorry for the delay Bill,

    one thing I do like on Solar Systems is this possibility for us to plan, simulate
    and know your own difficulties in your path.
    3 Common things on every plans:
    To get the best from the Sun while keeping things simpler and inexpensive.

    Well we both use a Schneider Electric Inverter. But you are On-Grid, I look for Off-Grid.
    The latest is not simpler by any means. I tend to look most for functionality and not energy price reduction.
    I do not have too much hungry AC equipment at home, no PCs, no Hot water cylinders, Steam, only a Mwave.
    But I do need to plan a future consumption of 2000w / day.
    Let's start by the Panels: 4*BenQ PM096B00.
    Suppose that everything else was okay, by your calcs, how much energy could I retrieve and charge my battery banks on a usual day:
    something like 1.3KWh ?

    Thanks again.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,590 admin
    Re: Charge Controller for two 120v battery banks ?

    The amount of solar power you receive will very much depend on your available sun, weather, and shade (if any). Shade will kill a solar electric panel output (pipes, chimney, overhead power lines, nearby trees, etc.). you need a shade free roof/panel mount area from 9am to 30pm or so. Shading on even a few cells of a panel can kill the entire panel (or series string) output until the shade goes away.

    And what is a typical day for your location. If you live closer to Lisbon, using the Solar Electric Handbook:

    [h=3]Lisbon
    Average Solar Insolation figures[/h] Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 51° angle (from vertical):
    (For best year-round performance)

    Jan
    Feb
    Mar
    Apr
    May
    Jun


    4.00

    4.61

    5.76

    6.20

    6.26

    6.31



    Jul
    Aug
    Sep
    Oct
    Nov
    Dec


    6.45

    6.61

    6.18

    5.24

    4.08

    3.44



    Toss the bottom three months (assuming you use a generator), that gives you 4.61 hours of sun per day:

    1,300 Watts * 0.52 off grid system eff * 4.61 hours per typical February day = 3,116 Watt*Hours of AC power per day

    Now, if you are looking at a full time off grid system, a 10% or more rate of charge (my suggestion) on a 24 volt battery bank would be:

    1,300 WH per day * 0.77 typical panel+controller derating * 1/0.10 rate of charge * 1/29 volts charging voltage = 345 AH @ 24 volt battery bank

    Assuming 2 days of storage and 50% maximum discharge on your battery bank (good optimum battery bank design for lead acid batteries):

    345 AH * 24 volts * 0.85 inverter eff * 1/2 days of storage * 0.50 max discharge = 2,070 Watt*Hours per day (from battery bank, no sun)

    So, the above system would seem to meet your 2,000 WH per day for at around 9 months of the year... For the other 3 months of the year, you would need a combination of conservation (for bad weather) and/or backup generator/grid...

    To see how much you could power you could get from the battery bank, using flooded cell lead acid battery bank design rules:

    345 AH * 24 volt * 0.85 inverter eff * 1/20 hour discharge rate = 352 WH per 5 hour night (just an idea of how much average power you can pull
    345 AH * 24 volt * 0.85 inverter eff * 1/8 hour discharge rate = 880 Watt maximum continuous load (would give you less than 4 hours of power to 50% discharge)
    345 AH * 24 volt * 0.85 inverter eff * 1/5 hour discharge rate = 1,408 Watts maximum short term power (i.e., small microwave+lights+water pump)
    345 AH * 24 volt * 0.85 inverter eff * 1/2.5 hour discharge rate = 2,815 Wattts maximum surge (few seconds to start a well pump, etc.)

    So, that would make a ~900 to 1,500 Watt inverter (maximum useful inverter) for your 345 AH @ 24 volt battery bank.

    Note that the solar panels you are looking at appear to have a Vmp (voltage maximum power) rating of Vmp~54.7 volts:

    http://www.sol-distribution.com.au/BenQ/BenQ-SunForte-Data-Sheet.pdf

    When designing for an off grid solar power system, you are limited by the standard MPPT (maximum power point tracking) charge controllers typical input/output ratings. For most MPPT charge controllers with ~140-150 VDC maximum input rating from the solar array (Voc--Voltage Open Circuit rating when cold), for various reasons, most controllers would only work with one panel in series (Vmp-array=54.7 Volts standard test conditions). Voc-cold-array with two or more panels in series could be >140 VDC in cold weather (we would have to look at this issue in more detail--if needed).

    For your system, that means that you are limited to one panel voltage, and a 24 volt battery bank--You could not have a larger system with a 48 volt battery bank with most charge controllers (you need Vmp-array~70 VDC minimum to properly charge a 48 volt battery bank with ~60 VDC minimum charging voltage for the battery bank).

    Otherwise, those panels should work fine for your needs.

    A big issue with off grid solar power systems--It is very difficult to start small and grow them. Yes, you could start with a 1,500 WH per day system and grow it to ~3,000 WH per day (add solar panels, more batteries, etc.)... But any larger system (or even smaller), probably not easily. Inverters are 12, 24, or 48 volts--Larger system need larger inverters. Adding batteries later, batteries age (years and cycle life). It is not recommended to mix old + new batteries--If gives you a mixed age battery bank where you will have some batteries failing earlier than the others--And having to change some/all batteries later. Also, adding parallels strings of batteries has issues too (more work for maintenance, more costs for wiring, etc.).

    Sort of like buying a small car, then trying to put in a larger engine/transmission, bigger brakes, etc. to turn it into a pickup truck--Can be done, but usually not a good plan.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset