Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

bajamox
bajamox Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭✭
Hey everyone I been looking around the web and this looks like a very good Forum.. I am new to solar and want to put in the system for my vacation home/shack in Baja http://mox90291.smugmug.com/Baja/Casaita/i-kkg4MXp
Here is a list of my equipment,http://mox90291.smugmug.com/Baja/Casaita/i-QZmQ2CJ
I have scavenged these from friends,craigslist and sales. Hoping someone can chime in let me know if these are all compatible I went with full Xantrex equipment as I feel it would be able to "talk to each other"
Panels to sharp NU-U230F3, they show 30 V, I'm looking to set up a 12 volt system. Can I still use these?
I'll be using also Xantrex C60 charge controller, Xantrex Pro Sine 2500 W charger / inverter. That will be monitored with a Xantrex ACS control panel. I also thought it safe to get Xantrex battery temp sensor and Xantrex TFB 110 battery fuse block. The batteries that I have acquired are Marathon M6V190F6 volt 190 amp hour VRLA batteries; I have eight batteries to use. In addition to those I have 4 Emerson EB 46 the 200 degrees both are Gel cell batteries. Is it okay to mix two manufactures batteries? If not would the 8 Marathons be enough?
I want to be powering 1 refrigerator (380Kwh per year), 6 12 volt LED lights, simple music system, charging of phones and laptops.
Would it be safer for me to use my Honda 3000 watt generator for occasional use of power tools or could the system handle the start-up?
I've heard of wiring batteries "in-line" and "tandem". Can someone explain the difference in which wiring would be best for this equipment? If I was to add solar panels and chose 180 volt panels will that dropped the charging ability of the sharp 230s. I’ve read about 10% drop difference as maximum.
Or might the 2 sharp 230' s be sufficient for my power consumption
Looking forward to a happy relationship with all if you
Thanks in advance for your help
Mox

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    Welcome to the forum.

    You've got one or two problems, possibly more.
    You can use 30 Vmp panels on a 12 Volt system, but not with a PWM type charge controller which is what a C60 is. It can't down-convert the higher Voltage into greater current, so much of the power is lost. Almost half in fact.
    It is not necessary to use all the same brand of equipment on a small system as there is no critical communication between charge controller and inverter.
    You do not want to mix battery types. More so than any other mismatching that may happen. You don't really want to use GEL batteries at all, as very few of them are actually suitable to RE use.
    You have eight 6 Volt 190 Amp hour batteries. That would be four parallel strings, not a good idea especially on a 12 Volt system. As-is it would be 760 Amp hours: the C60 can't handle enough current to charge that, and two 230 Watt panels isn't going to produce the current either.

    I suggest you stop buying things until you get a system design worked out. As it is now you've got a bunch of "bargain" equipment which is not entirely compatible and probably not suitable to your needs.

    Step One: buy a Kill-A-Watt meter and measure the real power use of what you want to run (or similar items) under real-use conditions. Do not trust labels that say "120 Watts" or "1.3 Amps 120 Volts". They are practically science-fiction.

    Step Two: prepare to resell things you've got so you have some money to put towards things you need. For example you'd be better off with a 24 Volt system unless there is a particular need for 12 Volts (i.e. mobile application). The PWM type charge controller makes adapting cheaper GT style panels to any system a problem. MPPT is more expensive, but eases the array design considerably. The batteries you have could be configured as two parallel strings of four in series on a 24 Volt system: same amount of power, greater efficiency, fewer problems likely.

    A bit about battery system Voltages: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15989-Battery-System-Voltages-and-equivalent-power
  • bajamox
    bajamox Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    thanks for that rapid response. It seems the existing charge controller would be the first to go and as you say, MPPT eases the array design considerably. I'll replace with an MPPT. was not aware 6 volts batteries could be wired for 24 volt. Thanks for that. would that be wiring + to _ on 4 each resulting in two 24 volt banks?
    Thinking to utilize the gel batteries I have until they simply die. Then thinking then to replace with trojan 16LRE. would then the 2 230 Sharppanels be enough .
    You should see the small systems some beighbors have down there and they are running lights and refrigerator.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja
    bajamox wrote: »
    thanks for that rapid response. It seems the existing charge controller would be the first to go and as you say, MPPT eases the array design considerably. I'll replace with an MPPT. was not aware 6 volts batteries could be wired for 24 volt. Thanks for that. would that be wiring + to _ on 4 each resulting in two 24 volt banks?

    Two 24 Volt strings: "bank" is the term we use for all the batteries together, regardless of how they are connected. Just as an array is all the PV together, whether connected in series or parallel or some combination of the two.
    Thinking to utilize the gel batteries I have until they simply die. Then thinking then to replace with trojan 16LRE. would then the 2 230 Sharppanels be enough .
    You should see the small systems some beighbors have down there and they are running lights and refrigerator.

    You can use them 'til they die, just don't use them in combination with flooded cells or AGM's as they won't take the same charging Voltage or current.

    Two 230 Watt panels on a 12 Volt system (using an MPPT controller) would produce about 30 Amps of current. Not really enough for L16's which start at 320 Amp hours (the L16 designation is a case size, not capacity). They would do fine for two GC2/T105 types (6 Volt 220/225 Amp hours) in series.

    For those 190's wired up for 380 Amp hours @ 24 Volts you'd want about 1200 Watts of array on an MPPT controller.

    I've seen lots of small systems. Many of them are good and can run lights and refrigerator. Some of them are not so good but the owners think it's normal to have to put new batteries in every other year so they say it works fine. :p We try to go for long-term here because the stuff is expensive and everyone wants good value for their solar dollar, plus no one wants a system that doesn't work well.
  • bajamox
    bajamox Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    wow thanks againn.
    so if I were to "start out" with waht I have in addition to a new purchase of MTTP controller and only the two 230 volt panels would they provide enough to charge the 8 marathon 190 amp hour batteries if the were set up on a 24 volt bank
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja
    bajamox wrote: »
    wow thanks againn.
    so if I were to "start out" with waht I have in addition to a new purchase of MTTP controller and only the two 230 volt panels would they provide enough to charge the 8 marathon 190 amp hour batteries if the were set up on a 24 volt bank

    No.
    You could expect about 30 Amps @ 12 Volts. On a 24 Volt system that would be 15 Amps. With the eight batteries configured for 24 Volts you'd have 380 Amp hours and the 15 Amps from those two panels would be at best 4% charge rate which is below the 5% minimum (no load) rate. All it would manage to do is delay how long it is before the batteries die. If you could get two more of the same panel (920 Watts total) and an MPPT controller capable of at least 30 Amps it would work (7.8% charge rate; good for areas with lots of sun).
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    Note I am assuming those Marathon batteries are true deep cycle based on them having an Amp hour rating. If they are automotive or RV/Marine deep cycle they will not last so long.
  • bajamox
    bajamox Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    Hey thanks again Cariboocoot
    Note I am assuming those Marathon batteries are true deep cycle based on them having an Amp hour rating. If they are automotive or RV/Marine deep cycle they will not last so long.

    yes they are deep cycle,190 amp hour each
    This is a great forum it seems as though every time I go to Google a solar question this North Arizona wind and sun has the answer
    I noticed in one of your responses on another subject you State "not the best way to do it, but sometimes you just have to work with what you've got."
    So that's what I am trying to do. I did just receive an MTTP controller thanks to your recommendation. You noted earlier that the 230 watt Panels would not be sufficient to charge eight batteries. So I'm thinking just utilizing four for now until New panels can be purchased( they should probably be equivalent in capacity?). Hoping you might be able to take time to view this diagram I made up. Can you see anything wrong with it.
    http://mox90291.smugmug.com/Baja/Casaita/i-2fWktS3/A
    should add that the shack sits in remote Baja and on good days gets up to 8 hours of sunshine to the roof and faces about 130 degrees SE
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    Well that sort of looks right. That's as much as I'll commit to on a diagram like that. :D

    Couple of points about it: AC doesn't have (+) and (-) it has Hot and Neutral. That's just terminology though. Xantrex battery temperature sensor will not help for solar charging; it would only affect charging through the inverter.

    On a 12 Volt system 460 Watts of panel would work for 380 Amp hours (four 6 Volt batteries wired as two parallel strings of two in series). About 30 Amps peak so 7.5% charge rate.

    Problem: the other four batteries sitting around are going to be dying. It's what batteries do from the moment they are made: start to die. All you can do is slow it down. So it would be a good idea to be able to charge them occasionally as well, or else they will be scrap in about a year.

    New panels: always best to match existing ones as close as possible from both Vmp and Imp.
  • bajamox
    bajamox Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    HI Caraboocoot, wondering if you might be hangin about. well, back in October I was able to get down to Baja and fire-up the entire system. Being solar stupid it took many days but I did get it working flawlessly.
    system consists of 4 230 watt panels, Renogy MPPT40 Charge Controler with MT-5 Remote pad, Xantrex Prosine 2500 with ACS remote control panel
    the panels produce 37 volts from 7 am to 3:30 pm ,even on cloudy days. by about 3:00 pm my bank of 12 6volt gel batteries (1,920Ah) are at 95% or better. Running a 12 volt bank.
    We run 1 18cu.ft. refrigerator and in the evening 3- 13.5 watt / 120volt / 60 hrz/ 112Ma LED bulbs. at 7:00 am i checked the bank and it's at about 48-51%,
    I think it's working well.
    That was until we got back down yesterday. When we left I turned my Big Red shut-off to off. upon arrival i flipped my system on and received a Warning message on the ACS remote "No Communication" I have unpluged every wire to the system, batteries, remotes, PV feeds, shut-oo - everything . then rehooked up everything , no change. same warning. I have posted images at http://mox90291.smugmug.com/Baja/Solar/) I hope might help in troubleshooting , if you, or anyone else, might like to help
    Thanks so much , Bajamox
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    bajamox, I can not read or understand what those METER pictures are meant to tell us, and the same applies to the xantrex pictures as the resolution is not good enough to read.

    Tell us more please.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    Based on what I see it is the data link between the Inverter and the remote. I have no clue what cable it uses and what the plug ends are like. You can clean them up and re-plug. If it's a RJ-phone plug you can bet some moisture got to it. Most likely you going to have to disconnect the Inverter from the DC input and let the Inverter re-boot before the Panel will be recognized, if it will even work. It's not totally unusual for a remote to fail. My guess the inverter will work without it.
  • bajamox
    bajamox Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    THANKS Westbranch and Blackcherry for sound advice. sorry for the blurry shots. I have borrowed an inverter from a neighbor, I am up and running. definetly communication breakdown between ACS remote and Inverter. tried without remote and inverter does not start up. the cable used between remote and inverter is a standard phone cable. replaced the original with another and same warning came up. It has been raining heavy here on and off for a month could condensation have built up at connection? would it be the remote that is damaged? or could it be the Inverter that is damaged. Thank all for your help
    a
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja

    Have you tried contacting the vendor and /or the maker? They might have a better idea, that is not a common brand we hear of, not the xantrex though...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • bajamox
    bajamox Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Re: Newbie needing system help and encouragement for off grid In Baja
    westbranch wrote: »
    Have you tried contacting the vendor and /or the maker? They might have a better idea, that is not a common brand we hear of, not the xantrex though...

    we found out the problem yesterday morning so, first thing in the morning Monday I'll be calling Xantrex thanks