LFP or LifePo4: questions about using

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  • PNjunctionPNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    Re: LFP or LifePo4: questions about using
    Does my 3 LiFep04 Vacuum Cleaner batteries qualify as a member of the talking class ?? When the Batteries and Equipment to use them becomes Plug and Play, only then will they become main stream for the " Average Joe " until then it's just experimental.

    Nope. Wrong application and cells. (High-C cylindricals). Do not judge what a house-bank made of large prismatics under relatively low "sub-c" conditions to the vacuum. I have a Hoover Lynx, but it would be foolish to base any judgements on that. I'm not exactly sure that the cells are lifepo4 either, possibly another higher energy-dense chemistry like LiNmC. Would be nice to know if they were actually A123's inside.

    You aren't the average Joe, and I'm not interested in persuading you either way. However, we DO have some people here interested in more than just a regular lead-acid.

    I'm sure Mike is happy with his NIFE batteries, but nobody is giving him grief about them not being plug-n-play or waiting for the average Joe's acceptance.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: LFP or LifePo4: questions about using
    creeky wrote: »
    Whatever. Please tho. If you are not answering my question about using. Stop posting to this thread.
    (although I was intrigued, 6 pages (last chance to visit) to 12... wow.)
    Seems like your declaring some kind of thread Ownership. Interesting !!
  • gww1gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    Re: LFP or LifePo4: questions about using
    Thing is, I could guide a newcomer about the generics of flooded batteries, but you would NEVER find me trying to act as an authoritative guide for a Rolls-Surrette without ever having owned one.

    The thing is untill I bought the battery that I have I didn't own anything and was trying to decide what to get. The hyperboil is what I consider discussion. I like knowing why poeple did or did not decide to go certain ways. I bought fork truck which had some of there own issues. I apreciate the guys that own them and others that didn't get them cause their research took them in a different direction. I have found that all most no one says I bought these cause I am dumb and like to make dumb decisions. Most people defend decissions they have already made. I believe if people are adding content with an honest intention, then it is for the reader to try and pick through it and make his decision. I am still learning and have liked all parts of this discussion. Now I have more then I had before if I need to spend money again.
    cheers
    gww
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: LFP or LifePo4: questions about using
    PNjunction wrote: »
    Please guys - let's not go there with the "us and them". The shortcomings of course could all be turned on their head with us denigrating lead-acid too. Hydrogen? Acid? Massive Peukert effect? Are you nuts? All batteries have shortcomings - none are perfect as witnessed by the hundreds of threads bashing lead-acid manufacturers and their problems. But, in this instance, people willingly go to help. Come lifepo4, and all you get is misguided drama.

    What I constantly hope for and recommend is that we stick to the technical side of things, and let the user / owner decide. All I am saying is that without ownership, it is far too easy to just parrot back what you hear in the media or from other misinformed sources - frequently NOT in our application or using our specific chemistry.

    Thing is, I could guide a newcomer about the generics of flooded batteries, but you would NEVER find me trying to act as an authoritative guide for a Rolls-Surrette without ever having owned one.

    In the end, all we are seeking is fair-play.

    We constantly explain the short comings of lead-acid around here. Far too many people expect them to be 100% efficient and need no maintenance, for example. I, for one, also warn against expensive batteries for the newcomer - especially that brand with its deteriorating reputation.

    If the LiFePo isn't tested against every argument or if it doesn't survive such testing it will not be accepted into use and the biggest disadvantage of all, the price, will not come down.

    I see it has approximately a 2 Volt operating range on a 12 Volt system. Plus, that range is higher than lead-acid. As such a cheap 12 Volt inverter with its 10.5 LVD would murder these, therefor either an independent LVD must be used or a better inverter with programmable LVD. The high end charge Voltage looks like even the cheapest of controllers can manage, but again the numbers have to be checked carefully.

    How much danger are you in if the Voltage is too high or too low? Lead-acids can take quite a bit of abuse; can the LiFePo? Average Joe isn't going to babysit his battery bank. I know, because they don't and even with the tolerance of GC2's they manage to destroy them in a few short weeks. But at that point they just have big lumps of scrap metal; nothing worse.
  • ReedReed Solar Expert Posts: 55 ✭✭
    Re: LFP or LifePo4: questions about using

    The original poster basically asked "..I am contemplating buying a LFP or LIFEPO4 battery system for my off grid farm as the advantages of the LFP battery fit my particular requirements very well.

    I am interested in hearing from those of you who have LFP battery systems. If you could help me out with specific assurances I would be most grateful..."

    It does help if those 122 posts down would read the request of the original poster and help answer his questions instead of going off onto their own tangents. The primary question was for advice from those who have used LFP and not 8 pages or more from naysayers.
    Reed
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: LFP or LifePo4: questions about using
    Reed wrote: »
    The original poster basically asked "..I am contemplating buying a LFP or LIFEPO4 battery system for my off grid farm as the advantages of the LFP battery fit my particular requirements very well.

    I am interested in hearing from those of you who have LFP battery systems. If you could help me out with specific assurances I would be most grateful..."

    It does help if those 122 posts down would read the request of the original poster and help answer his questions instead of going off onto their own tangents. The primary question was for advice from those who have used LFP and not 8 pages or more from naysayers.
    Reed

    The original premise is based on an assumption.

    If the negative aspects are not also explained and explored then he may as well just go buy some regardless and find out for himself.
  • PNjunctionPNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    Re: LFP or LifePo4: questions about using
    If the negative aspects are not also explained and explored then he may as well just go buy some regardless and find out for himself.

    I'm not falling for it. There is a line between healthy skepticism so needed in this day and age, and endless debate and mudslinging - which has been so boringly discussed over and over and over, not only here, but elsewhere.

    You are quite right about just finding out for yourself! I recommend you do the same. There is too much misinformation out there. Perhaps that is an agenda in itself.

    To be fair, we should also discuss the negative aspects of lead-acid, namely Lead, Acid, Hydrogen, Peukert, Sulfation, etc etc. Oh wait, that is all waived away with proper maintenance, yet the average Joe kills his batteries prematurely on a regular basis.

    And that's what I'm trying to do here - is cut through the usual li-ion crap and show how simple it is to operate lifepo4 with proper installation and maintenance.

    But here are some MAJOR negative aspects:

    * Information is hard to find because most of the information comes from non-owners who have no first-hand experience
    * Those that do have experience are mostly outside of our application, like EV'ers and RC-modelers
    * Anyone willing to share their own first-hand experience quickly tires of having to defend their personal choice of battery chemistry.
    * Upfront cost mitigated over time.

    Of course, what is laughable about trying to denigrate lifepo4 from a cost standpoint is that going off-grid is ALREADY 10 times the cost of what you get from the outlet!

    That's what I don't understand - when you look at it from that perspective, all the bickering about upfront costs is like a Ferrari owner trying to debate a Lamborghini owner about "cost". :)

    Let's put it this way. When you actually OWN some, you'll quickly see the positives outweigh the negatives that I can find.

    Some negatives I truly miss:

    * Weight - when I bought lead-acid, I felt I got my money's worth having to hump all that weight around.
    * No sulfation. Drats.
    * No need for 100% SOC. Bummer - no more obsessing over "end-amps", finishing absorb, floating.
    * Simple CC/CV charging. Ugh. I spent a lot of time and money over and IUIa charger protocol to keep my agm's in shape, and no need to apply it here.
    * 80% DOD (or more if you know how to handle it) at full performance. Man, I miss buying double my capacity as I do with lead - see first negative.

    While this is true, do we REALLY want to go into silliness and discuss edge-cases as if we were trying to save the world from evil-lead? NO. I still own, use, and recommend lead where it is appropriate.

    Or is this all about debate, and not really about the batteries?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: LFP or LifePo4: questions about using
    PNjunction wrote: »
    I'm not falling for it. There is a line between healthy skepticism so needed in this day and age, and endless debate and mudslinging - which has been so boringly discussed over and over and over, not only here, but elsewhere.

    You are quite right about just finding out for yourself! I recommend you do the same. There is too much misinformation out there. Perhaps that is an agenda in itself.

    To be fair, we should also discuss the negative aspects of lead-acid, namely Lead, Acid, Hydrogen, Peukert, Sulfation, etc etc. Oh wait, that is all waived away with proper maintenance, yet the average Joe kills his batteries prematurely on a regular basis.

    And that's what I'm trying to do here - is cut through the usual li-ion crap and show how simple it is to operate lifepo4 with proper installation and maintenance.

    But here are some MAJOR negative aspects:

    * Information is hard to find because most of the information comes from non-owners who have no first-hand experience
    * Those that do have experience are mostly outside of our application, like EV'ers and RC-modelers
    * Anyone willing to share their own first-hand experience quickly tires of having to defend their personal choice of battery chemistry.
    * Upfront cost mitigated over time.

    Of course, what is laughable about trying to denigrate lifepo4 from a cost standpoint is that going off-grid is ALREADY 10 times the cost of what you get from the outlet!

    That's what I don't understand - when you look at it from that perspective, all the bickering about upfront costs is like a Ferrari owner trying to debate a Lamborghini owner about "cost". :)

    I'm not falling for it either.
    As I've already said we frequently explain the shortcomings of lead-acid batteries on here. Anyone who hasn't notice this is not paying attention.
    Seems to me the LiFePo advocates are preaching the "these are perfect" nonsense and dismiss any negative comments as uninformed nay-saying.

    As for people just buying and trying - that can be a very expensive experiment. We do not recommend people go into any system blindly, and the extremely limited information on LiFePo in a RE situation means, as has been proven repeatedly, that they are not suitable for just anyone to use.

    Those of you who insist on promoting them as being so much better should volunteer to buy batteries for anyone wanting to try them, with the proviso that you be reimbursed once the claims have shown to be true. In about 20 years time you'll get your money back I'm sure.

    We always err on the side of caution around here because we don't want people making expensive mistakes, whether that is from trying to use cheap equipment that ultimately doesn't work or expensive battery sets of any kind that drop dead far too early because they aren't managed properly.

    It appears it is impossible to discuss LiFePo without the advocates getting bent out of shape just because reality doesn't always support their opinions.
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