New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

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muirhouse
muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
Off Grid, 700ah Surrettes 48 V, SW4048/4048plus series-stacked, 15kw Generator; 2.7kw PV; XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller.

I am now determined to either solve my inverter very loud buzzing or get a new inverter to replace my series stacked configuration (which others have said should now have been done in the first place). This morning after a rainy day night time charge from the generator, the 4048 was buzzing loudly and the plus was silent. This buzzing never goes away and is definitely coming from the inverter housing and seems to be getting worse. But this is the first time I reaized it was all coming from the 4048, not surprising because of it being the controlling inverter (master-slave series/stacked setup ) Using the room above the basement is now a problem due to the noise.

So, One inverter to manage my generator and pv system. Any recommendations? Best Value, even used perhaps? The 15kw hardy diesel is overkill and will be downsized, so looking for good recs for backup generator also and discussion on diesel vs propane. PV is great in winter (but room for only 8 panels) and when snow covers is a problem of course.

This is now a front burner project, so weigh in with best ideas! Thanks in advance for all ideas!
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Hi muirhouse,

    Before speaking of new/different inverters...

    Some, here, have said that trying to Stack SW, with SW plus inverters will NOT work.

    Have you tried removing the Stacking cable and first trying each inverter separately, to see this buzz is still present?

    The SW and SW plus inverters DO buzz a bit. It is possible that a cover is a bit loose, or perhaps a mounting plate/board is a bit loose and resonating, making the buzzing more pronounced ... FWIW, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #3
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Hi Vic,

    That is a very good idea. Can I just pull the cable apart with the PV going full on without hurting anything? I will go do this right now if so.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Personally, I would switch off the inverters before removing the Stacking cable, then remove the cable and switch each inverter back on.

    You should NOT run any 240 VAC loads when the inverters are un-stacked, as the waveform from each inverter will not be synchronized with the other.
    Be sure to switch off any 240 V AC breakers while the inverters are off -- well pump, motors, perhaps compressor, etc.

    Several members here know the ins and outs of stacking SW and SW+ inverters.

    More later ... back to work. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #5
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Thanks so much, glad I checked with you. Will report back, doing this later today.
    Jan
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #6
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Vic,

    De coupling the stacking cable didn't make any difference. My electrician (installer of PV) said via phone it might be the transformer inisde the inverter, and said although it wasn't the twisted pairs, the following quote I found and send him from a Google search, prompted him to say a noise filter might help. Any thoughts on this or and new ideas?


    "Noise emissions from inverters are generally reduced by a combination of shielding, noise cancellation, filtering, and noise suppression. Metal enclosures are common for inverters and some other equipment. The use of shielded, twisted pairs for wiring is a common and effective practice. Filtering is a common feature of nearly all electronics.The most common method is to use capacitors across a signal line or wire to ground to get rid of the noise. More recently, the use of noise suppression provided by ferrite chokes, cores, and beads has become more commonplace in PV installations. With appropriate equipment choices, noise reduction techniques and proper installation practices, noise emissions from PV installations are not a significant problem."

    Thanks for help! Jan
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Hi Jan,

    OK. Just re-read your initial post in this Thread ... it still seems obvious (to me) that the noise that you have been referring to from the inverter/s is Acoustic noise -- what we hear with our ears.

    The reference that you found with Google appears to refer to electrical noise, caused by switching devices. The remedies noted in that search result should have little, if any effect on Acoustic noise. But, the steel enclosure around the outside of the inverter can help shield Radio Frequency Emissions (RFI), but at the same time help create and increase the Acoustic noise, when if is loose, or perhaps resonates at an audible frequency.

    Sometimes transformers that are not well potted, or those with loose windings/bobbins/laminations (etc) can buzz. And the venerable SW and SW+ inverters do buzz a bit. It is possible that the transformers in your inverter/s could be checked for loose parts, but realize that these large inverters will always make a reasonable amount of acoustic noise.

    And, any looseness in a transformer can become more loose in time. The skin of the SW inverter is quite a bit more difficult to remove, than is that of the SW+ inverter. The SW inverter could be 15 or so years old, and many of these inverters have been running for a decade or more. Things do happen in time ... difficult to say just what is causing the problem. If you had an oscilloscope, comparing the AC output waveform between each of these inverters may reveal something.

    The large SW+ inverters use three output transformers in series IIRC. The transformer is the most likely thing to buzz, but it would even be one of the transfer relays, or something ... dunno. Have little more to guess at this point. Had pinged a member here who really knows a lot about these inverters, but have heard nothing at this point. FWIW. Good Luck! Vic

    It is good that it appears that Stacking these two dissimilar inverters is not the thing causing the loud buzzing.
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #8
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Hi Vic, thanks for all the thoughtful help. Here's an overnight insight. It is only humming when it is inverting. If I turn off the main breaker in the house, the intverters are still on, but not power being asked for. Does that give us any clue?
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #9
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Vic - another thought! At one point my electrician rebalanced the load demands, and we put it all on the SW, never switched it back. ALL the demand is on the SW, I think this is a clue.

    So, on a test just now, turning on the washing machine, toaster, electric tea pot, all the lights, the LOAD readout just now is 27 amps on SW, NOTHING on SW+.
    Do you think throwing all demand on to other is a good test?
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #10
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Vic! I isolated the problem! It is the hot water Taco Circulator Cartridge. When I turn of breaker #10 in the house, (which says hot water heater) you cannot hear the buzzing in the back room any more. Down in the basement, on the inverters, with all breakers OFF except breaker #10, The Load is 1 on the SW, and searching, blinking yellow intermittent on the SW+, which makes me wonder if it is a 220 and is searching for the other 110 link, (no, I checked) or needs to be grounded or has a broken wire... or maybe its just the sw+ saying it doesn't have any load, and is searching for one.

    Anyway, that TACO circulator pump is HOT HOT to the touch. Going to check wiring now. Maybe a ground wire came loose?
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Hi Jan,

    So, are you saying that the SW+ inverter is in Search mode? Search mode is set from the main menu on the SW+ -- you move from Inverter off, to Search, to inverter ON, IIRC.

    It is difficult to picture just how your system is configured, and all the ins and outs of it. Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!
    muirhouse wrote: »
    Vic! I isolated the problem! It is the hot water Taco Circulator Cartridge.

    Anyway, that TACO circulator pump is HOT HOT to the touch. Going to check wiring now. Maybe a ground wire came loose?

    Jan
    what is the TACO pump numbers ? if it is a 220 v model and uses an electronic brushless style motor , those are very Synchronous to the cycle . they produce a moving magnet to spin the pump . If it is moving hot water , yes it will be hot to the temp of the water. if it is moving cold , but hot motor , that's not good.

    Just a WAG (wild guess) it could be that the taco internal electronics are phase shifting that the SW & SW+ are trying to syn to a ever moving target.

    I had a few GFI receptacles that would buzz or had enough internal load that my SS300 didn't like . Replaced with a different style and all is fine..That weird bug took me a few months to figure ..

    VT
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    IS that TACO circ pump mounted on the top of the tank ? If it is , it will fail on you, sooner than later...

    On the replacement box there is a warning... do NOT mount on the top of the tank, side mount is OK... they are good for what they were designed for but have plastic impeller, bushings and/or seals that will melt (warp) when the water temp gets too high, or made into steam... just so you know...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #14
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Taco is 007-F5, 115 volts. Motor says is Permanent Split Capacitor (whatever that means). The funny thing is, now that I have isolated it, it does not show up with a Load value when I flip the breaker back on, it does say Amp .71, maybe SWs don't register below 1? It is a HOT water circulator, so perhaps its fine. It just makes too much noise. Phase shifting, hmmm, and my GFIs do buzz(what did you replace with???). Going to see if Load shows up if I turn Inverters to ON from Srch, see if that makes a difference. And No, it is not positioned over tank, is InLine midway between expansion tank and hot water tank (I have radiant heat, but it is not on yet, and I have other circulators for that).
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    that was the second failure in 11 years, about 3 years apart, so the first one must have been a good (better?) production,... we replaced the entire Lennox Complete Heat, now discontinued, and have a Navien instantaneous water heater for house heat and DHW supply...
    PS. just had the spell check not accept Lennox and suggested lemon in its place , a reasonable alternative! It was an 11 yr. string of problems... no wonder there is a class action lawsuit in play...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #16
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Permanent Split Capacitor Motor:

    http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/9.html

    Think of a capacitor start motor--But remove the switch and leave the capacitor permanently connected to the second set of windings. Cheaper to build, probably more reliable (no mechanical switch), but not efficient enough to use on motors larger than ~1/4 HP or 200 Watts (motor will tend to "run hotter" than a capacitor start type motor).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #17
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!
    muirhouse wrote: »
    . Phase shifting, hmmm, and my GFIs do buzz(what did you replace with???).

    I had to correct the pumps first , then I could deal with the GFI's . Trying the other way around I lost . SID style pumps seems in AC and there the only load have a hunt & push or Seek thing fussing with AC SINE wave. If i use a 100 watt heat load(bulb) , the system settled down . I later moved to a DC driven pumps for those style of free impeller & phase shifting poles (SID) as for the GFI junk , I went to buy the old ones without all tie digital noise .. Funny thing , a feww weeks ago I heard one at a grid tie place in spurts , owner said it did this just this year !! (Install of dumber meter's 4 Us) . I'm waiting to see if he changes it , on suite bedroom . this noise would drive me nuts ,

    VT
    ,
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #18
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Thanks BB. My taco is at 1/25 hp so I guess right at ok. And the heat the Taco throws off is just a bit hotter than the hot water pipe itself. But is does cause the xantrex sw to buzz louder, and it buzzzes itself, but I can't feel any vibration from it. I am still stumped, and particularly so because there is no LOAD readout on the inverter. Perhaps it only shows when it is actually circulating if it does do that intermittently and I am just not down there to see it. So, turn the breaker in the house ON, it buzzes, no LOAD. Turn it OFF no buzz. ?????
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #19
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    So, further reading about Buzzing caused by the TACO, leads to discussions about airlocks caused by faulty air eliminators, anyone have any experiences with that? It could explain the buzzing on the TACO. but not the large Increase in the inverter Hummming at the same time, given there is NO Load showing up. But. I will say that I did shut down the system for the winter and drained everything out, and the vents on the hot water heater and expansion tank are leaking currently, steady drip, so cold could have affected the springs in those, maybe in the air eliminator or in the TACO itself? Like I said, determined to figure this out. I do have a new TACO sitting there, but hesitate to put it in until I isolate the other possibilities.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    read that bit about airlocks and think of plastic spinning in open air when designed to be wet.. => potential failure. Try to vent the air if possible.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #21
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Vic et al: Here are photos of Inverter SW, SW+ setup, boiler and TACO circulator and air/vent management stuff.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    that air bleeder is supposed to be at the highest point in the system to be fully effective
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #23
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Higher than the circulator (which is green and on the left). Is the bleeder the smallish brass piece?
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    yes, that is it. bubbles like to go to the top, and it looks like the Taco is part way up in all that plumbing so could be a collection point...

    in the old days each radiator had a manual bleeder, our old house dated from 1905 and had lots of them, was not a pressurized system and pump added in mid '60s
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #25
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    I don't know how you would get any higher than the circulator pump, no room, and would it have to be before the circulator not after (in which case that run seems just too short to accomodate anything). Hmmm. Any advice?
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  • Aguarancher
    Aguarancher Solar Expert Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    #26
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    If that bleeder in pic #3 is on your circ pump, I think it is there to keep the pump from cavitating if air is in the system. If you check your panels you will probably see another bleeder at the top. Just a guess.
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #27
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Here is a better view. The air vent is above the red tank, and definitely below the taco circulator on the left.
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  • Aguarancher
    Aguarancher Solar Expert Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    #28
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    That's a clean looking system. It appears to have been professionally installed. Looks like you also have radiant heating, nice. Looks like that bleeder is on a surge, expansion tank? I don't know what your concerns are at this point, but 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' is my motto. lol
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  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    #29
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Ah. The problem (concern) is that the Taco circulator pump for the hot water is buzzing loudly AND causing one of the inverters (the top one, the SW), to also buzz loudly, so loudly that it can be heard by people i the upstairs bedroom. Not good. Need to fix.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #30
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    Can't you just change the pump ?? I think the Grundfos pumps and flanges are interchangeable ( maybe quieter ). Your Inverters are beginning to get to the age ( 1999 vintage design ) that you may see more issues with loads, I do with my older stuff.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #31
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    Re: New Inverter Recommendtions Please!

    We, plumber and I , hacked the original plumbing and added a 12 + inch piece, vertically, of CLEAR Pex pipe at the highest point we could access. Placed a simple tap at the end so that when the air filled that 'tube' I can let it out. No good place for an auto one like you have plus the tap is way cheaper. KISS
    It looks like you could do something similar at the elbow just above that gauge , just before the pump, on the line from that red pressure tank.
    That valve to the back of the tank is an auto refill from your water mains, so if there is a drop in pressure it will top up the system.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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