Another useful site--makes a case for hybrid system.

For those folks off-grid, or those considering their energy production in off-grid scenario's I submit  http://www.detronics.net/wind_solar.pdf   They compare a Bergey XL.1 with a 750 watt solar array w/ mx60.  If you are going to put up one turbine, and cannot get your hands on a AWP 3.6, the Bergey to me is your next best choice.  That said, I like my Whisper 200.  If the rotors are cranking on an XL.1, you can bet you are making some power.  This is not necessarily the case with the 200.     

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,058 admin
    Re: Another useful site--makes a case for hybrid system.

    Above link fixed here:

    http://www.detronics.net/wind_solar.pdf

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,058 admin
    Re: Another useful site--makes a case for hybrid system.

    Just out of curiosity--for an off-grid system (I guess, like the one in the link above), how does on measure total kWhrs output from wind/sun systems...

    For an on-grid (Grid Tied) system, the solar (or wind) inverters are always cranking as much power possible into the AC lines since there is no real limit to "charging" currents with utility lines (for normal house type systems). For a battery/solar PV system, there would have to be a dump circuit (I believe the MX60 has this function) to make the kWhrs numbers more meaningful (which they may have done--it was not stated in paper).

    With battery systems, solar will charge the battery then reduce to actual connected loads--so solar PV outputs will appear to be depressed in high sun/low use situations. With wind, there may be a dump load (resistor bank) used to prevent wind turbine over speed--then it would depend on the controller to total both energy to the battery and energy to the dump (I have not played with wind power designs, so I do not know the details here).

    Also, it may be more interesting to also include the square of the wind speed (or even first subtract minimum wind speed, then square any positive values) and see how those track against the wind power output (notice the that, at the scale shown, very small changes in wind speed give very great changes in wind power output).

    Lastly, not including labor, construction materials, rental of equipment (crane, trencher, etc.), and such in the price will probably do more to scare-off new buyers when they find their installation costs are 50% higher (more or less) and skip the costs of hiring a crane to bring the turbine down every three to five years to re-tape the blade edges (assuming it is not a tilt tower) than given here. They may have, as well, dropped the $400-$700 for cable runs back to the battery house as this is also a site specific cost... Battery costs were also ignored in the cost of power (granted the article was trying to determine the cost differences between solar and wind--but, at lest in the first article, maintenance costs should have been estimated for R&R of the wind turbine).

    In any case, I live in a city with low wind--so both because of lot size and zoning, and insufficient winds--so turbines won't be useful for me here.

    -Bill

    PS: from the same site, here is a report comparing performance of an SWWP Air X vs a Bergy XL1 (it appears it is an "XL1"--article is ambiguous)... Does show that quality (and reliable, or not, vendor data) does affect real site performance. The article also goes into the testing performed and the use of a diversion controller (MX60) to better track power generated.

    http://www.detronics.net/airx_report.pdf
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Another useful site--makes a case for hybrid system.

    that's interesting. it will vary for people depending on their particular conditions when comparing to these tests, but i'm confused as to why they chose 750w of pv to compare with these wind generators. i'd have thought they'd have tried a watt for watt thing.
    anyhow, the test with the airx confirms what many have complained about for the airx. little output in general and constant long duration shutdowns under momentarily gusty conditions. even the test confirms it is really incapable of its rated output. yes it will produce killowatts into a resistive load, but in real life people charge batteries and i doubt you'll reap a tiny fraction of the power with the voltages that low. i feel it's an overated badly designed toy that's priced too high for what it is. the awps or bergeys are real generators and it is an xl.1 bb, as that's what their website says.
  • boBboB Solar Expert Posts: 975 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Another useful site--makes a case for hybrid system.


    One thing I like on the detronics.net web site is the graph of energy production (per day I assume) starting
    in the spring and ending in the fall. It shows how a wind/solar hybrid system works very well
    together, especially during that time when wind energy falls off and solar takes over for the summer.

    boB
    K7IQ
    :-D
  • arcandsparkarcandspark Solar Expert Posts: 63 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Another useful site--makes a case for hybrid system.

    I had very poor help from SWWP. I had a new in the box Windseeker 500 that someone had in storage for a couple years. When I assembled it and put it up for testing there was no output. I contacted SWWP and they said they did not make that model anymore and could not help me with it at all, they said I would have to purchase a newer wind generator. As far as I am concerned they have lost my buisness for ever and I will never advise anyone I come in contact with to purchase one of their products... The XL1 is the one I plan on using from now on... Just my two cents. arcandspark
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Another useful site--makes a case for hybrid system.

    Hey arcandspark,

    I'm sorry to read about your issues with SWWP. Let me fill you in on what I have been able to gather regarding the 502--503 series turbine. I think Dave Calley at SWWP designed the predecessor--the Wind Baron--or something like that. A company down in Prescott--which I believe is now Aeromax Energy-- built the units. There were design issues--particularly with the rotors, but eventually the turbines became decent. For some reason the 2 companies went their separate ways. You are not the first person to complain about SWWP--particularly regarding their customer service. That said, I believe they have made a concerted effort to improve. Your 500 series turbine is a predecessor to what is now the Lakota. I would talk with Aeromax i.e---aeromaxenergy.com--for some help, at least in the diagnostics arena. I understand they recently introduced a new controller--which may remedy your situation...If all else fails, perhaps we could walk you through some steps to at least isolate the problem. Please let us know how we can help.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Another useful site--makes a case for hybrid system.

    gee guys, do you think we have somebody who works for the company? :roll:
    i stand corrected as he is not an employee of the wind genny outfit, but referenced the we as meaning all of us here on the forum. it would be nice to hear from some of the wind genny outfits to occasionally post here.
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